athiests...

[gtpsleeper]

Im ****ing SICK of my roomate... I go to KU (VERY liberal town Lawrence is...) and one of my roomates is an athiest which is whatever, to each their own. But finally today I was talking about Younglife (like a school sponsered youth group for those that dont know) and he said... and i quote... "people who believe in God are the biggest suckers in the world... believing in some kinda majic power all outta fear is..." Then i stopped him... still calm at this point... and proceeded to explain the logic in the belief of God (not gonna get into detail on that) and made him look stupid so he stomped off and said "Fine, go enjoy Younglife, and im gonna go praise my Mountain Dew bottle..." and slammed the door...

Ok im not one to force the belief in god on someone but if you dont believe in God, or even the logic of it... dont insult me. I in no way insulted his beliefs before this little "tif" so he had no right either...


phew ok... sorry i had to get that out...

[Fivefingerdeathpunch]

people like him, need to keep their thoughts to themselves about that stuff. Its not right to make fun of someones beliefs in life.

I for one dont go to church, but yet still believe in a higher power.

[NegativeOne13]

Im ****ing SICK of my roomate... I go to KU (VERY liberal town Lawrence is...) and one of my roomates is an athiest which is whatever, to each their own. But finally today I was talking about Younglife (like a school sponsered youth group for those that dont know) and he said... and i quote... "people who believe in God are the biggest suckers in the world... believing in some kinda majic power all outta fear is..." Then i stopped him... still calm at this point... and proceeded to explain the logic in the belief of God (not gonna get into detail on that) and made him look stupid so he stomped off and said "Fine, go enjoy Younglife, and im gonna go praise my Mountain Dew bottle..." and slammed the door...

Ok im not one to force the belief in god on someone but if you dont believe in God, or even the logic of it... dont insult me. I in no way insulted his beliefs before this little "tif" so he had no right either...


phew ok... sorry i had to get that out...

Dude, most Lawrence people suck. I hate most of em. When I'd party there, I got into a lot of fights. Manhattan on the other hand, hella fun. And full of a lot cooler people.

[gtpsleeper]

Dude, most Lawrence people suck. I hate most of em. When I'd party there, I got into a lot of fights. Manhattan on the other hand, hella fun. And full of a lot cooler people.

ive come to notice that...

[NegativeOne13]

ive come to notice that...

Yep. I used to live in Olathe, now I moved back up North more where I grew up. But yeah, the only good nights I had in Lawrence was with people I knew. Manhattan, I get lost and go to random parties and have fun.

[MrPoopyButthole]

I'm Agnostic, the idea to create atoms and molecules was not some coincidence

[T0pwater]

It seems plain as day to me that whatever side you fall on, it takes exactly the same amount of faith to claim there is no God as it does to believe in one.

It makes me happy when I meet people like that. It just tells me that no matter how hard we as people try to not believe in a god, the very fact that we have to have groups dedicated to atheism makes it more obvious to me that his mark is over everything. People by advertising their atheism actually ADD to my faith. If there was no god, why would we feel the need to deny his presence in the first place?

[RareGMFan]

It seems plain as day to me that whatever side you fall on, it takes exactly the same amount of faith to claim there is no God as it does to believe in one.

Ok....don't take this the wrong way, but...now it's my turn to stop you right here. You said you started this thread to vent as a theist. That's fine, but....now I have to vent as an atheist about the above statement, as it is completely incorrect, but used regularly by believers. For starters, atheism is not a "belief" or "faith", but rather a LACK of belief or faith due to a lack of empirical evidence. Theists only make this statement to try to bring the probability of atheists "being right" down to the same level as a completely faith based belief system, but it is completely nonsensical. Saying not believing in any faith is a faith in itself is the equivalent to saying not participating in sports is a sport in itself.

Secondly, it is not the job of the non-believer to disprove your claims (or those of your faith). The burden of proof is always on the person making the positive claim, as you cannot prove a negative. For example, if I told you I'm Christ reincarnate, and you called BS, would it be acceptable for me to tell you to prove that I'm NOT him? Or would the burden of proof be on me to prove that I AM him? If it was up to the nonbeliever to disprove someone elses claim, it would then be your job to prove that the claims of Mohammad, Krishna, Vishnu, etc are all false. It would be our job as nonbelievers in ANY claim of supernatural phenomenon to disprove those claims. The problem with this? Keep in mind that all of the above would be protected under the same "god/the supernatural is not of this world, therefore you cannot use logic to disprove them" clause as the god of YOUR faith. Does this mean you now have to believe in all of the above by default? If not, why not? Simply because the culture/society/ethnicity you were born from/into subscribes to Christianity? This is the only qualifier required to make your current beliefs the ones you elected to have faith in, or be the Truth? Atheism simply says "not only do I not believe in all those same faiths and claims that YOU don't, but I don't believe in yours, either". That is not a belief or faith, nor does it even profess to claim there is no god, which is another huge misconception. It simply means we just don't believe in any of these past or present claims.

The prefix a- simply means without, so:

theism = belief in a deity
a-theism = WITHOUT belief in a deity
gnosticism = claiming to have esoteric knowledge of a deity
a-gnosticism = WITHOUT claiming to have esoteric knowledge of a deity

BTW, this means most people who claim to be agnostic are also atheist. If you do not have a belief in any particular god as outlined in any scriptures, you are atheist by definition, even if you believe there are other forces or "creators" out there. That just makes you a "weak (not derogatory) atheist", or "agnostic atheist", as opposed to someone who claims to know for a fact that there is no god, which would be a "strong" or "gnostic atheist".

It makes me happy when I meet people like that. It just tells me that no matter how hard we as people try to not believe in a god, the very fact that we have to have groups dedicated to atheism makes it more obvious to me that his mark is over everything. People by advertising their atheism actually ADD to my faith. If there was no god, why would we feel the need to deny his presence in the first place?

....I don't understand the logic to anything you said above at all. The existence of one god or another is automatically accepted by the majority of the members of almost any society. How does someone saying they've decided not to blindly go along with this acceptance somehow back your faith? That is the same as saying those that decided not to blindly accept the FACT (at the time) that the Earth is flat somehow strengthened the fact that the Earth is flat. If the Earth was not flat, why would we feel the need to deny it in the first place?

You see, the problem here is that we as humans have believed in one god or another for so long that we automatically look at the belief in god(s) as the "default" position, when in all reality, it is not. We are not born believers of any particular god, faith or religion. We are TOLD what to believe, and what to believe is usually determined by the culture you are from/born into. Any one who has been a devote Christian their whole lives, had they been born to a predominantly Muslim ethnicity, would be a Muslim today. This is not a matter of opinion, but simple fact. Yet somehow, when someone refuses to automatically subscribe to ANY belief using the same logic and reasons a believer uses to brush off others beliefs, s/he is considered crazy, stupid, on drugs, in need of saving, etc. In other words, something is wrong with them. This is true for people that question ANY readily accepted belief, idea or "truth", regardless of how logically it is done, but it is taken to a whole other level when it comes to theological things because now you're questioning the very foundation of our existence (how we got here, why we're here and what happens to us when we leave here).




Closing thoughts. I've been atheist for a little over a decade now. However, I usually don't discuss it, even while people are talking to me about god this, and pray for that because I know nothing good can come of it. I bite my lip, smile and nod about 95% of the time. I've been at my current job for 15 years come this summer, yet my boss/the owner, who is quite religious, didn't know I was atheist until about 4 or so years ago. Very few of my friends, much less acquaintances are aware of it, either. I just don't feel like getting into a discussion, because it's very hard to explain WHY you don't believe without sounding insulting. When you lay out the logic behind why, it just comes off sounding that way.

SO...imagine my frustration as I have to sit there and listen to my customers babble about how the Muslims are trying to take over, or that they're trying to "take Christ out of Christmas", or handing me a pamphlet and saying "here's a little prayer for you" after I ring them up (for some reason, this has REALLY picked up the last couple months), all while biting my tongue because I know the reaction to "ummm....I don't believe in god" is going to get ugly. The handful of people I've admitted being an atheist to under varying circumstance seem to be fascinated by it, and can't let it go. Not that they're trying to "save" me, but they want to know why. I'll give a few very simple reasons, and end it there, because going into details just isn't going to end well, and I can't go around pissing off customers, even though THEY can preach to ME all they want because....well...they're the customer. And people don't see anything wrong with it because....well....it's GOD, duh! Who doesn't believe in god?

[TLSheff]

....I don't understand the logic to anything you said above at all. The existence of one god or another is automatically accepted by the majority of the members of almost any society. How does someone saying they've decided not to blindly go along with this acceptance somehow back your faith? That is the same as saying those that decided not to blindly accept the FACT (at the time) that the Earth is flat somehow strengthened the fact that the Earth is flat. If the Earth was not flat, why would we feel the need to deny it in the first place?...

My apologies and laughter but I read this whole paragraph under the voice of Leonard Nemoy The logic part and way you worded the whole thing just made his voice pop into my head.

That being said this was very well written and profoundly interesting as I tend to think of myself as Open Minded to the whole religion idea but haven't found a place to plant my feet. I guess by definition, I cannot deny my place or title

I was raised in a backwood Baptist church and have since gone to basically every christian church to get an idea of the different beliefs and given they all go by the "good book" there are FAR too many different opinions to follow one. I like to think of myself as a christian in general, nothing specific but by the same time I have always been a logical thinker and the logic behind religion lacks too much. Whether its Muslim, Christian, etc... they all leave me wondering, besides hoping in the end something great happens, what if there is just nothing?

I hate people trying to shove religion down others throats because that's what we are lead to believe. I don't try to make you change your outfit because I was raised to wear a suit and tie everyday and so should you because that's what real men should do.... f- that

I think we need to be open minded to peoples beliefs and if they don't believe the same as you, so what, they probably don't dress the same, eat the same, or like the same things... are you going to try and change that too? I hope not, for your sake

[T0pwater]

Also agnostic. Something may have created the universewe live in, the consistent mathematical relationship could use some explanation. I however have no respect for Jesus preachers and others who pray to god for the stupidest reason. Example: this season of survivor there is a guy who believes god put him there to win the tournament. Yeah, if god were real, he probably doesn't give a damn about your greedy little requests.

I love it when agnostics/atheists have better theology than "theists". My brother-in-law says the same things as you. And I keep telling him to read the Bible, to see what it really says. I wish more than anything people would just go to the source rather than a distorted, bad representation for their frame of reference. Jesus was not like this. Nor should Christians be greedy/forceful/harsh/unloving/etc. In any case, I cannot blame any of you for being agnostic or atheist. The reputation "Christians" have given Christianity is heartbreaking.

John 13:35: By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.
1 John 4:20: If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

That is where we (as Christians) should start if we follow the Bible. When I start wanting to talk to someone about anything personal, I think to myself, do I want to do this because I love this person, and for their sake, or just mine? I have to say I reject 80% of the things I'm about to say before I do. Which brings me to my next point...

Ok....don't take this the wrong way, but...now it's my turn to stop you right here ......... Who doesn't believe in god?

I'll cede to you on both points. I really mulled over how to respond to you all afternoon and I'd say my first 10 possible responses didn't pass the aforementioned filter. I really didn't realize I was getting into debate territory, because that's not where I want to go. Firstly, because I see little merit in it, and absolutely no merit under these (internet forum) circumstances. The only time I'd consider debate-ish discussions about this is once we're friends, and we have a pre-formed mutual respect for one another. Because if we don't have that first off, we're really only in it for ourselves anyway. And what's the point of that?

[SlowNA06]

If your roommate plans on preaching [sic] or soap-boxing atheist values, he ought to get himself some learnin' first. Atheists tend to be the most studied when it comes to the principles of a variety of religions because it is a necessity to ever open your mouth about it. Folks tend to leniency with theists in this because they are the majority and for the most part seldom discuss the existence or nonexistence of a thing they presuppose to exist. This is especially important if you want to end such arguments and still have any friends around - folks can get scrappy if you just go at it swinging. There's nothing bad about believing that someone else is wrong in the tenants and principles they base their lifestyle on; it is entirely another thing to outright degrade them because you feel they are wrong and should do as you do with no thoughtful explanation.

[gtpsleeper]

Truth^^^^ and there is 10000000x more logic in believing in a god than there is not to...

[T0pwater]

Truth^^^^ and there is 10000000x more logic in believing in a god than there is not to...

May be true... however many brilliant Christian apologists (logical theologists) will admit that logic never saved anyone. I used to think there was merit in arguing/debating with people about this. But I realized through some frustration this is just not the case at all.

John 6:44: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me..." -Jesus

So faith is a gift... not something to be argued, debated, or proven. It can't be transferred from human to human. It is a free gift, given to those who will accept it. If I accept it and you accept it, it is not our job nor is it beneficial to anyone for us to argue with those who knowingly choose not to accept it.

That said, you have my respect for keeping your cool. I know it's not easy.

[gtpsleeper]

May be true... however many brilliant Christian apologists (logical theologists) will admit that logic never saved anyone. I used to think there was merit in arguing/debating with people about this. But I realized through some frustration this is just not the case at all.

John 6:44: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me..." -Jesus

So faith is a gift... not something to be argued, debated, or proven. It can't be transferred from human to human. It is a free gift, given to those who will accept it. If I accept it and you accept it, it is not our job nor is it beneficial to anyone for us to argue with those who knowingly choose not to accept it.

That said, you have my respect for keeping your cool. I know it's not easy.

this i know... which is why i made this thread... i had to vent...

glad someone understands where im at now though, worst part is that i have to live with this guy another 3 months and hold my tongue

[T0pwater]

this i know... which is why i made this thread... i had to vent...

glad someone understands where im at now though, worst part is that i have to live with this guy another 3 months and hold my tongue

I've found that in general atheists can be some of the most bitter, abrasive people. Of all the discussions I've had about faith with the most diverse types of people & beliefs, atheists have been the most blatantly hurtful. They go for the jugular every time. They're the only people that will call you stupid to your face for what you believe.

Judge a tree by its fruit... If you treat people that way, why would anyone agree that what you believe is right and want to be the same way?

[SlowNA06]

atheists have been the most blatantly hurtful.

The shame of this is that so many people will announce their atheism (or what they suppose to be atheism) as a challenge and a statement of some superiority over their fellows. There are plenty of genuine strong atheists out there, but I find the position is more often than not taken by people purely to be contradictory. I've always been of the (very incorrect) opinion that a proper atheist is probably a weak agnostic and ought to, at least for the sake of intellectual exercise if noting else, engage in argument to seek some truth to the matter; that is to say, if they feel they must publicly discuss the matter at all.

[thunder71173]

I've found that in general atheists can be some of the most bitter, abrasive people. Of all the discussions I've had about faith with the most diverse types of people & beliefs, atheists have been the most blatantly hurtful. They go for the jugular every time. They're the only people that will call you stupid to your face for what you believe.

Judge a tree by its fruit... If you treat people that way, why would anyone agree that what you believe is right and want to be the same way?

If I was an athiest who had nothing but this world and the things that are in it for the very short time we are here to live for every day I would probably be bitter and abrasive too. I am a christian and feel very sorry for people like that but all you can do is pray for them and be as kind to them as you can. In a way that is like salt in the wound for bitter athiests who have nothing to live for, life is a test and that guy was put there to make you stronger and who knows you may shed something good on his life by walking the walk.......... Kill him with kindness and watch him squirm

[rynoman03]

I haven't met too many Lawrence people I have liked. But I am a huge Kansas State Fan! I also went to school at KSU and yes people there are FUN!

[matt5112]

Agnostic as well.

I'll respect your beliefs as long as you respect mine.

Clearly your roommate needs a lesson in respect.

Which is sadly declining.

[KeithGTP03]

I steer clear of religion....there are too many different Gods out there and some of them sound like @ssholes.