athiests...

[Remnant King]

look up "wesbro baptist church" and you will understand what radical means...

Oh trust me, I know what and who they are. We've had to deal with his attendance to our city about two times already, and he's gracing us with a third next month >_>

[LilJoe]

to me i just believe in god i stay away from most religions because they like to say there right but no1 really knows so im not gona pray to any other savior sorry Jesus, like ozzy said "so many religions but only 1 god i dont need another savior" mostly all main relgions do have a god but they just see him in different ways like Christians jews n muslims. but to me i see him as a type of alien who made us and told us how to live are lives peacefully because like nature, there will always be war and everyone will keep having sex.

[gtpinsc]

[T0pwater]

I hope you don't go and get the thread locked for all of us.

[TLSheff]

....I don't understand the logic to anything you said above at all. The existence of one god or another is automatically accepted by the majority of the members of almost any society. How does someone saying they've decided not to blindly go along with this acceptance somehow back your faith? That is the same as saying those that decided not to blindly accept the FACT (at the time) that the Earth is flat somehow strengthened the fact that the Earth is flat. If the Earth was not flat, why would we feel the need to deny it in the first place?...

My apologies and laughter but I read this whole paragraph under the voice of Leonard Nemoy The logic part and way you worded the whole thing just made his voice pop into my head.

That being said this was very well written and profoundly interesting as I tend to think of myself as Open Minded to the whole religion idea but haven't found a place to plant my feet. I guess by definition, I cannot deny my place or title

I was raised in a backwood Baptist church and have since gone to basically every christian church to get an idea of the different beliefs and given they all go by the "good book" there are FAR too many different opinions to follow one. I like to think of myself as a christian in general, nothing specific but by the same time I have always been a logical thinker and the logic behind religion lacks too much. Whether its Muslim, Christian, etc... they all leave me wondering, besides hoping in the end something great happens, what if there is just nothing?

I hate people trying to shove religion down others throats because that's what we are lead to believe. I don't try to make you change your outfit because I was raised to wear a suit and tie everyday and so should you because that's what real men should do.... f- that

I think we need to be open minded to peoples beliefs and if they don't believe the same as you, so what, they probably don't dress the same, eat the same, or like the same things... are you going to try and change that too? I hope not, for your sake

[SlowNA06]

STRONG atheism is not a "belief" or "faith", but rather a LACK of belief or faith due to a lack of empirical evidence.

Fixt. This is the kinda thing I'm talking about - not all atheists are the same kind of atheist.

Secondly, it is not the job of the non-believer to disprove your claims (or those of your faith). The burden of proof is always on the person making the positive claim, as you cannot prove a negative.

The burden of proof can be on either, actually. Frankly, if you're making a point, you've got to bring the proof or you're just a jerk.

most people who claim to be agnostic are also atheist.

I'd love to say this is wrong, but I frankly don't know more than a couple agnostics... most of which are theists.

If you do not have a belief in any particular god as outlined in any scriptures, you are atheist by definition, even if you believe there are other forces or "creators" out there. That just makes you a "weak (not derogatory) atheist", or "agnostic atheist", as opposed to someone who claims to know for a fact that there is no god, which would be a "strong" or "gnostic atheist".

You're confusing your terms somewhat (I could also, perhaps, be a tad pedantic in the case that nobody else thinks the distinctions matter). The belief in a superior force is theist. An agnostic theist would believe that there is a higher power, but it is impossible to know what it is; they are not atheist. Therefore, not all weak atheists are agnostic atheists, either.

[gtpinsc]

I hope you don't go and get the thread locked for all of us.

doubtful.

[Wotgtp]

No FSM or george carlin links yet? Weird.


On a serious note I am an atheist, but I do respect other peoples opinion on religion and beliefs. That's your right as a human being imo. However I do like to bust balls and make jokes about them at times. (ok alot of times, but I do it for the lulz and mean no harm by it)

[RareGMFan]

Fixt. This is the kinda thing I'm talking about - not all atheists are the same kind of atheist.

Where did I claim all atheists are the same? All I said is that by definition, an a-theist lacks/is without belief in a deity, and that a lack of belief is not a belief in itself. In fact, if anything, the rest of what you quoted got into some detail about how different atheists can be because the term atheism doesn't define them any further than "I do not believe in any particular deity", so I'm not sure what you were getting at here.

The burden of proof can be on either, actually. Frankly, if you're making a point, you've got to bring the proof or you're just a jerk.

So...if I claim the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the one true god, and you deny this, the burden of proof is on YOU to disprove my claim unless you're just a jerk? How does that make sense? Theological topics seem to be the only ones where "disprove my claim" is seen as an acceptable request by the person making the request.

I'd love to say this is wrong, but I frankly don't know more than a couple agnostics... most of which are theists.

.........

You're confusing your terms somewhat (I could also, perhaps, be a tad pedantic in the case that nobody else thinks the distinctions matter). The belief in a superior force is theist. An agnostic theist would believe that there is a higher power, but it is impossible to know what it is; they are not atheist. Therefore, not all weak atheists are agnostic atheists, either.

I'm not confusing the terms at all. It's the mass public that confuses the terms, and the way you defined them above is the stereotypical misconception. Theism is NOT some generic belief in a "superior force". The term was created in the 17th Century to define a believer of at least one specific deity, primarily to take on deism, which was all the rage in the 17th Century (and is what our founding fathers were, NOT Christian, which is another misconception). Whether you are monotheist or polytheist, a theist by definition subscribes to one specific doctrine or another. The lack of belief that ANY deity exists is then atheism. A/theism refers to beliefs, a/gnosticism refers to knowledge. They both address different issues and are not competing labels. Believe me ( ), I've studied, discussed and debated religion for quite a few years now. This isn't just some random topic to discuss that occasionally comes up on a car forum for me, so I have a better grasp on this subject than the average person.

My apologies and laughter but I read this whole paragraph under the voice of Leonard Nemoy The logic part and way you worded the whole thing just made his voice pop into my head.

Great. Now that's stuck in MY head! As soon as I read Leonard Nemoy, I could hear his voice speaking those words, too.



*Edit* How about an FSM reference, Wotgtp?

[T0pwater]

Also agnostic. Something may have created the universewe live in, the consistent mathematical relationship could use some explanation. I however have no respect for Jesus preachers and others who pray to god for the stupidest reason. Example: this season of survivor there is a guy who believes god put him there to win the tournament. Yeah, if god were real, he probably doesn't give a damn about your greedy little requests.

I love it when agnostics/atheists have better theology than "theists". My brother-in-law says the same things as you. And I keep telling him to read the Bible, to see what it really says. I wish more than anything people would just go to the source rather than a distorted, bad representation for their frame of reference. Jesus was not like this. Nor should Christians be greedy/forceful/harsh/unloving/etc. In any case, I cannot blame any of you for being agnostic or atheist. The reputation "Christians" have given Christianity is heartbreaking.

John 13:35: By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.
1 John 4:20: If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

That is where we (as Christians) should start if we follow the Bible. When I start wanting to talk to someone about anything personal, I think to myself, do I want to do this because I love this person, and for their sake, or just mine? I have to say I reject 80% of the things I'm about to say before I do. Which brings me to my next point...

Ok....don't take this the wrong way, but...now it's my turn to stop you right here ......... Who doesn't believe in god?

I'll cede to you on both points. I really mulled over how to respond to you all afternoon and I'd say my first 10 possible responses didn't pass the aforementioned filter. I really didn't realize I was getting into debate territory, because that's not where I want to go. Firstly, because I see little merit in it, and absolutely no merit under these (internet forum) circumstances. The only time I'd consider debate-ish discussions about this is once we're friends, and we have a pre-formed mutual respect for one another. Because if we don't have that first off, we're really only in it for ourselves anyway. And what's the point of that?

[DreadMcLaren]

This thread makes me read and think too much lol

[Wotgtp]

haha nice going rareGMfan.

[GtpKo]

To say that being an atheist doesn't take faith is just wrong. Here's how. To claim that there is no God, you must also claim that you have been to every corner of the universe, every plane of existence, that you are aware of everything, and that there is nothing you don't know and therefore can say that you've checked and there is no God.

But, since you're not omniscient nor omnipresent, to say %100 there is no God takes a leap of faith as well. Just follow the chain of logic.

I had a friend who claimed to be an atheist. Carl Sagan was his hero. I never insulted his beliefs, just shared mine with him. He would insult my beliefs all the time however. Thats always the way it is. Atheists will eventually resort to "you're crazy" or "you're stupid" and think that the scientific method lets them get away with that. A true follower of Christ will eventually, what, share his beliefs maybe?

Want some more logic? Lets take a run-of-the-mill atheist and myself for example. If there is no God and I die, nothing will happen I'll just rot. So will the atheist. Maybe I'll die without fear but thats it. Now, if there is a God and I die, I'll find out what Heaven is like. But for the atheist he'll end up in the "outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth". Now which, logically, would be the better choice? Rot or Afterlife?

Do you have empirical evidence that you'll wake up tomorrow? But you believe that you will.

And about Christ. He healed the sick, forgave people, exposed hypocrites for what they are, fed and cared for the poor, stood for the truth and what did those who didn't believe in him do? Crucifiy Him!

I would suggest, and I'm not "cramming this down your throat", suggest that any of you just start reading the Gospel. The 4 books Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Four eye-witnesses who are each testifying to what they saw and heard.

Wouldn't the testimony of 4 witnesses be convincing in court? Why do you doubt?

[KeithGTP03]

The 4 books Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Four eye-witnesses who are each testifying to what they saw and heard.

Wouldn't the testimony of 4 witnesses be convincing in court? Why do you doubt?

Thousands of people saw David Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty disappear. And Im willing to bet at least 4 of them believed it really happened.

[Remnant King]

And I found a unicorn, but I killed it and threw it in the sea.

[Big Dave]

The most interesting thing about those that believe there is a god is their belief is never modified by fear or doubt... The most interesting thing about those that oppose that belief is how angry they are if you don't agree... Atheists always claim to be attacked by anyone that thinks differently than they do... Everyone calls them stupid, forces their beliefs down their throat, and dismisses them when they refuse to agree... It's interesting... The only people i've ever seen act that way... Well you know...

[Remnant King]

Well I do agree with your first point, everything else you say is based on stereotypes and bias.

Even if 10 out of 10 people you seen act like that, doesn't necessarily mean that's how it goes.

[GtpKo]

And I found a unicorn, but I killed it and threw it in the sea.

Write a book about it. I will read it.

Now your turn, read the New Testament.

[Remnant King]

Write a book about it. I will read it.

Now your turn, read the New Testament.

I'll read the New Testament when you read the Qur'an

[T0pwater]

I have a Qur'an. For every chapter you read of the gospel, I'll read any similar-length material (within reason - I'm a family man ) of a literature of your choosing. I'm not saying this to be a smart a$$ at all. If this sounds good to you, PM me with your choice and I'll pick it up from the library. Also, I see you're in MI too... we could grab a beer if you're close enough and you can tell me what you think/ vice versa.