Supporting mods for cam?

[Nchristopherson]

Definitely cam over rockers. Better power and bigger powerband. It seems most guys run cams and I have never heard/seen any horror stories, except when people try to do it too fast and they don't do it right. I wouldn't be concerned about putting a cam in my car, it was one of the best decisions I ever made. The power is so awesome. As long as you don't gouge your bearings when you put it in, I can't see the problems. And the stock bottom end of these blocks is nearly indestructible to any supercharged application with the M90.

Oh btw, my car is cammed and has 186,000 miles on it lol.

[Daven]

I haven't gone that deep into an engine before, but I am very picky when it comes to anything with my car, and definitely don't like to leave loose ends. I would also find someone with some knowledge to at least help with the install. But currently I want to start stockpiling parts as I can, starting with the smaller stuff people usually don't think about and seeing if anything particular pops up for cheap. I don't want to buy a cam off say ZZP and think what they recommend is all I need, when I know sometimes advertisement is different than reality when it comes to sellers


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[Nchristopherson]

Are you gonna remove the engine or do it with the engine in the car? And yeah, I definitely wish I had someone there to give me all the answers, but I managed to push through it on my own. I think it was a great learning experience. It pushed me to do lots of research and I bet if I did it again, I could do it in 1/3 the time.

I don't think ZZP would leave you hanging, but your best bet is to do the research on your own, compile a list of items you KNOW you will need, then make a post asking if there is anymore anyone else would add? That's what I did. That way they have an idea of what kind of build you are going for and they can give you their .02. Someone has done it before, specifically speaking, but in general, you won't get a specific answer.

[Daven]

I was reading that you could do it through the wheel well?

And the idea I was going for was to get the smaller stuff and hope the bigger stuff came up for sale up here in canada or for a lower price. Shipping kills me -.- so I know what general "degree" I want my cam to be, and I figured the supporting peices would be about the same?


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[Nchristopherson]

Yep, through the wheelwell is how I did it. Ah! I forgot shipping to Canada is a lot more. That makes sense.

Basically, every question you're asking regarding what cam and what to support it is somewhere on the internets I am sure. ZZP doesn't have to be a final say, but it is a really good place to start, they have tons of information. Or do intense, 3800store (or whatever), etc. Then once you've built your list for your build, check to see if someone here thinks that would be a bad idea.

A perfect example is I always thought that a double roller was required for cam swaps. So I anticipated the double roller, but after doing tons of research, found that most people don't run double rollers with VS cam setups and 90# sprigns. Sure, there will be increased wear, but it's not going to snap, which is what you want to avoid lol.

[Daven]

But wouldn't that "increased wear" mean that something internal will fail sooner? Possibly leading to very bad results? That is what I am trying to avoid lol

So maybe I should just ask if there are anything you guys WOULDN'T advise doing?


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[Nchristopherson]

I meant increased wear on the damper. Not like the rest of the engine is wearing, even though it is at all times (obviously lol). In 176,000 miles, my damper had a small amount of wear on it, so I am assuming i won't have to deal with it for quite a long time. There is going to be accelerated wear, but with springs that are only 20# stronger, it's not relevant to spend an extra $150 on it. I was just using that as an example with my build.
Now if I were going with the XP cam and were doing stronger springs, I would probably anticipate a stronger chain, possibly a double roller.

[Nchristopherson]

I guess, if I were to give philosophy on what to put in your car for your build, there are the standard things to do that are obvious. But things like lifters, there's no point, the OEM ones work better than any new replacement you'll throw at it. Heavy springs, why not just run the springs your build requires? There's no point to putting more stress on your engine than it needs to handle your shift point. Pushrods, are you getting to the rpm where you may possibly bend the stock ones? If not, why worry about them? So it's all about what your build needs to be successful.

[Daven]

So I should simply pick a cam, find what rpm it is good with, and look at all the other components to match it to that? I thought 130# was what most go with from what I've seen? It's hard to find what is specific and not just what others choose to use in their builds


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[Nchristopherson]

So yeah, a quick hit on ZZP's XP-Cam webpage says to run their cam with at least #125 springs, #130, or #140, so call it even and do #130 that's fine. A double roller chain required for shifts between 6300 and 6600 rpm. Since you need to do the double roller, you'll have to anticipate the front cover being either out further or machining the oil pump cover. Says here they recommend OE-R lifters and ZZP or COMP pushrods. So search around to see if people have gotten away with the stock ones or not.

So a quick google search showed this
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/128668.html

This guy never goes above 6k RPM and is getting away with stock timing chain, #105's, and stock pushrods. Once again, it's all about the Google and tailoring to your build. Do you want to scream up to 6600 rpm?

[Daven]

Wouldn't staying with the lower revs take away much of the gain from the cam though? Since one of the biggest things about the cam is being able to hit the higher revs? I could do the smaller setup, but this all seems like something you'd want to do once instead of ripping it all apart again later lol


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[Nchristopherson]

I did the smaller setup (VS cam) which is aimed towards the lower speeds, and I can say it has never failed to put a smile on my face and it's not even tuned. I didn't do the XP cam build, so you'll have to look into the useful powerband, any specific information I give I can't say is completely true.

But yeah, you're definitely gonna want to pick one and stick with it. But if you're going with that mentality, why not put a turbo cam in it, double roller, #140/#150lb springs, and turbo the car? You'll make way more horsepower than any M90 setup.


One thing is, if you come with specific questions, you'll get specific answers. "Anyone run #130 springs on a XP cam build?" "Did you run a double roller or was a single roller fine?" "What about pushrods and lifters"?
That way, you'll get specific answers.

[REDCRAPGP]

Keep in mind what type of driving your planning on doing... Yea higher rpms are cool and all but let's be realistic and unless your doing highway pulls chances are you won't get many opportunities to reach those high rpms with constant city traffic.

[Nchristopherson]

^^ Exactly the reason I went with the VS cam. I do city driving 90% of the time and it's superior for lower RPMs. Which I am pretty sure I chose the VS cam because of your recommendation

[Daven]

Would it make sense to go with a smaller cam and stock aside from springs and later add slightly bigger rockers and ect to level out with a larger cam? Or does it not work like that?

And as for driving conditions, mostly city. But I do like to open it up when I can and am more building a reliable car that will do well on the track. I couldn't see these mods nessesarely hurting daily driving aside from maybe some mpg. And I expect to sacrifice some mileage for power, that's just how it works.


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[Daven]

By later, I mean if I feel the need/have cash to blow


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[Nchristopherson]

That's been discussed a bit but I don't want to say anything about that because I haven't done lift calculations and whatnot to know which setups work and if you need machining done.. For the most part though, rockers and an aftermarket cam don't work unless it's a custom cam profile or really small lift rockers and a slightly larger than stock cam lobe. I would recommend searching this website for cam/rocker combo, you'll find some good material on it.

Watch some YouTube videos of the XP cam and the VS cam and see the difference in pulls. You'll notice the VS cam gives it all it has almost right away but you see it bleed off pretty fast, where as the XP cam it kinda bogs lower, then it just ****ing screams once it gets into its powerband. So unless you're going a speed that you can use that upper RPM I would go with the VS cam, which I did lol.

As for track driving, I have no information, someone else with a VS cam setup will have to chime in. But if you want to romp in it in the city, I think you would want to go with the VS cam. The VS maintains a lot of the stock car while really livening it up a lot. Has a really nice exhaust tone too.

[REDCRAPGP]

Yay I win!

Yup the reason why I went with the VS as well most of my driving is in the city so the powerband being in the low-mid torque was important to me.. Big cams are cool and all but wasn't the right choice for me with the type of driving I do plus I'm one of the few guys that remembers at the end of the day it's still a Grand Prix so going all out is unnecessary and somewhat pointless I would rather go all out on a rwd platform. Also you might want to ask yourself if this is a DD and are you going to enjoy DD'ing a big cam'd car.. Another reason why I didn't want to go big.. I didn't want to turn what was a DD until a car that I hated DD'ing.

And before anyone says yea plenty of guys DD XP cam'd cars without issues blah blah yea they do but that's all opinionated some guys will be bothered by the lobe, some guys won't but that's up to you to decide what your ok with.

[REDCRAPGP]

You can add rockers laters but you kind of have to calculate your lift and figure out if your going to have to do more like head work etc. at that point I would just add a IC and make it even more reliable. My mpg went up with the VS can surprisingly. I never tracked the car and have no intent to do so.. Since I rather not add any unneeded wear and tear on it and there's no nearby local tracks unless I'm willing to drive 3+ hrs to do so.

[Nchristopherson]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^

Become an underdog and run a VS cam swap :P. Be the minority, it seems most guys jump right for the XP cam!

Another great point. Although it's not tuned, my car gets around 29.5-31 going 65.