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10-11-2011
2600 watts will pull more amperage than his alternator is going to produce, especially with it being stock. Voltage has stabilized greatly in many situations by getting a stout battery that is designed for quick discharges, which car audio requires. Do I have link to scientific evidence? Nope. However, I do know that running that much power on a stock battery and alternator will result in clipping and a dead amp or sub eventually, depending on how hard he pounds his equipment.
10-11-2011
Originally Posted by Fatboy501
You really think so? Music is dynamic...we all agree. Ever wonder why people put heatsinks on a lead when soldering the wire to the speaker? Why do I need a heatsink for 30 watts of heat if the supposed speaker can handle 500 watts, etc?
You never see a continuous output of 2600 watts, ever, while playing music(unless your output signal and amplifier input stage aren't matched correctly). RMS. Why don't electrical engineers utilize this specification? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXIST! Why is it that RMS only exists in audio amplifiers? It's garbage, that's why. Smoke and mirrors/marketing.
From dictionary.com
So...the root of the average of squares? *forehead slap*rms the square root of the average of the squares of a set of numbers or quantities: the root mean square of 1, 2, and 4 is √[(1² + 2² + 4²)/3] = √7
Key words; "many situations". Did they involve a honda, grand prix, camaro...? Unless you can compare apples to apples then "many situations" doesn't fulfill our requirement of a 120amp alternator on a Pontiac Grand Prix. We have a world SPL finalist in our midst and he uses a stock alternator and burps(square wave/clipped signal) with a couple thousand watts.
I would presume his installation is very thorough and grounded properly.
So you've alluded to "quick discharges" as well. Does that mean the factory voltage is dropping below 12.6V? There's no way around that. If you aren't dipping below the charging voltage of the battery then there's no way it's supplementing the electrical system.
That's not how a power supply in your amplifier functions. Alternator voltage and RCA signal voltage are two different things. Just because the voltage in your electrical system dips doesn't mean your gain value on the amplifier changes.Do I have link to scientific evidence? Nope. However, I do know that running that much power on a stock battery and alternator will result in clipping and a dead amp or sub eventually, depending on how hard he pounds his equipment.
The only power supplies that are regulated, meaning same output regardless of voltage, are JL audio amplifiers. Just because power output drops doesn't mean you clip a signal. That's a direct function of the gain and signal voltage.
10-11-2011
Get a Vmax charge tank 1000. it should fit in the stock battery tray.
10-11-2011
oh and you will need a high output alt. somewhere around 230 amps.
10-11-2011
If your going to buy an Optima, get a Yellow Top.
Redtops suck...and have been proven to fail...time and time again. Everyone around here has since replaced theirs with a factory ACD battery or a Yellow top...
10-11-2011
Been runnin my Red Top for 5 years schmee!
10-11-2011
Not necessarily... the phoenix gold Xenon amps used a regulated power supply as well, which was not a well-known fact. An amplifier attempting to pull power that just isn't available will result in serious voltage drop. Amplifiers have a protection circuit that kicks in at low voltages (varies between manufacturers) for a reason... it is not good for the amp, and will end up damaging it. A draw that serious on too low of a voltage will usually cause clipping in the signal, if the amplifier doesn't protect or go up in smoke first. You also stated that the individual burping with a couple of thousand watts is getting square waves AKA clipping. While that may not be a big deal during his short burps, supplying such a signal to a system used on a daily basis is not healthy for either the sub or the amp. Also, yes, it is possible not to drop below 12.6v on music... with an incredibly stout (expensive) electrical system. Also, while he will not see 2600 watts continuously, there will be spikes in the draw depending on the frequencies being played. I agree with what you say as far as burping is concerned. However, for a daily system above 1krms, a stout battery is needed in my opinion. I propose that we agree to disagree lol.
Last edited by Fatboy501; 10-11-2011 at 11:23 AM.
10-11-2011
1) Um. That protection circuit must be below 11V? When you're vehicle is off the battery value can be ~11.8V. What is it down line? Again...I'd like to redirect you to the idea that if your engine is running then our 120amp alternator is sufficient.
2) A draw that serious? You were talking about "quickly discharging"...now "a draw that serious"? If the battery kicks in at 12.6V...and you're dropping below 11V...now you're exceeding the alternator and battery together? In what world/environment does that occur? I'd like to point out again....your amplifier will never approach 'rated' RMS, let alone "a draw that serious"
3) In a mathematical sense, a square wave(burp) and "clipped" signal are essentially the same.
You haven't addressed the issue at hand. I'm stating that the op's setup is well within the threshold of our 120amp alternators. In addition, if the engine is on...the battery will never supplement the vehicle's electrical system.
Ever seen a vehicle running without the battery?
10-11-2011
Lol you tell me, I never plan on living in Michigan. However, -20 is still an extreme temperature in my book. I also had no clue that battery capacity was reduced in low temperatures... that's some crazy mess. While 15% degradation may not effect the average setup that much, that's not the case where a high-current audio system is involved. I still stand by my point that a nice AGM battery will be the best solution for his particular situation. I use AGM and Arkansas doesn't get anywhere near extreme temperatures. However, I saw a more stable after switching to AGM, and I'm only running approx. 1300rms total.
10-11-2011
lmao... yes I have. Are you suggesting that our alternators supply 120 amps continuously, even at idle? No, they do not. When the draw that serious... aka, a need for a quick discharge to satisfy a power-hungry amplifier, occurs if he is at idle, where oh where will that extra amperage come from? Also, yes, voltage does drop below 11v without a sufficient electrical system... if it never happened, and was impossible, as you imply, then there would be no need for the protection circuit concerning low voltage. If you've never heard of a system capable of causing a voltage drop to below 11v, I question how many large systems you have personally been involved with.I addressed the issue at hand perfectly: a stock battery and a 120amp alternator is not sufficient to run 2600 watts on a daily basis. If the OP does this, you can be the first to offer up every explanation in the world to why his equipment should not have failed when something goes wrong.
10-11-2011
Not at all!! I was wondering when this would come up :>
But with that said, ever clamped to see the AVERAGE pull of an amplifer? An alternator can't keep up with a quick discharge? Now we're talking about the voltage regulator. A well built power supply on the amplifier should have the necessary capacitance built in. A battery is in no way comparable to a capacitor.
As far as 11V goes...I've been talking about the engine running this whole time. Not the engine off. That's why 11V isn't a valid issue at this point in time.
10-11-2011
Not a problem...but I like the healthy debates on topics like this so that others have a little bit more to go on besides the local opinionI propose that we agree to disagree lol.
10-11-2011
Ummm... voltage drops into the 11s do occur with the engine on. When that quick discharge is needed, and the car is at idle, with the alternator producing less than peak voltage, that power is pulled from the battery... a battery not suited to multiple fast cycles of charging and discharging will have a horrible time after this is repeated time and time again, which it certainly will be. After this discharge, part of the alternators power is re-charging the battery... what about when that next big bass hit occurs? Once again, a large draw is being placed upon the system. As far as a well-built amplifier power supply, the OP never actually stated what amplifier he is using... so well-built may or may not apply in his particular situation. Average pull of an amplifier differs greatly depending on the type of music one listens to. For instance, a rock song with lows around the 35hz range will not pull as much average as my decaf'd music with extended bass notes well down into the subsonic range.
Last edited by Fatboy501; 10-11-2011 at 12:10 PM.
10-11-2011
These don't look too bad. I might get one:
| O'Reilly Auto Parts
Cheaper than a yellow top Optima but I have read many good ratings of them.
10-11-2011
DEKA 9A31
i run caraudio comps and these are the batteries i run, they are direct dropins
10-11-2011
IIRC Deka makes the batteries I listed above.
10-11-2011
Wking, what year is your gp?
10-11-2011
One that starts the car reliably.
All of this other nonsense that the battery does anything else is a waste of time.
My factory battery just pooched after the car was left for a week without being driven.
And it got me through the -20* C starts all last season. (-4 * F)
10-11-2011
Lol... so the battery has no effect at all on the audio system? I guess all of the competitors running multiple batteries and alternators are just wasting their time, when they could just have alternators alone. Lol... hilarious...
10-11-2011
You got that right!
There's a big difference between a bunch of consumers putting together a contest and real professionals.
Why doesn't home audio use batteries again? Only 20 amp outlets...?
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