if i had an intercooler all i would worry about is flow. most people dont though thats why i gave the general idea of what you should do.
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if i had an intercooler all i would worry about is flow. most people dont though thats why i gave the general idea of what you should do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by colindunn
So quick question on this one, new and trying to learn as much as possible, is it possible to keep the stock box and,and some how make it as as a frre flowing box, like the one in your sig with the plexi on top?Quote:
Originally Posted by machinegunsquid
yeah you can cut it if you want. except probably cant use the stock air filter if thats what you want. but people have modded the stock airbox to go with a conical filter.
My stock air box from my 1998gtp has 2 90 degree bends, and corrugated tubing, why on earth would you want to use this setup?Quote:
Originally Posted by prixgt01
Just let the stock airbox remain...and run a piece of hardpipe from the TB to the box...gut out the front of the box too...drill a hole for a rubber grommet for the IAT sensor...and done. Probably better than most.
Well seeing how there's 2 90 degree bends both in opposite directions that's next to impossible on the 98 box. I know the 99+ stock air boxes are a bit different but you'd still run into the same thing. Show me how you can run a straight piece of pipe from the TB to the stock airbox with no elbows since it's so simple please.:th_laugh-lol2:Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegtp91
http://i951.photobucket.com/albums/a...g?t=1274162559
Thought I'd start adding real scientific info. Boo me if you want.
for example, the following link graphs air according to density, temperature and for our purposes pressure. Air - Temperature, Pressure and Density
Feel free to analyze and say what you will.
more details on the m90, Page Title
Yep, it's going on a NSX of all things. But it seems he has good data, and I'm sleep deprived (305am here) so it just might not be, lol.
I will have more tomorrow, but maybe this could get us started.
I even saw some things on the Tbird supercoupe forums about adding a water jacket to the s/c case itself to cool temps but im not posting that yet. I haven't really been up to date with Gp development either....
Since reading all these intake post recently, I now realize still maintaining my stock throttle body is a big no no with my current set up and I need to get on that before I get my car retuned. My car is xp'd, s3 heads, mild port on the m90 and other stuff. Ive put 5k miles on it the past 2 years so I dont mind tinkering on it. I was even reading some of gale banks stuff, a S/C will be constipated with a poor intake setup...and I know I have a Corky Bell book somewhere....
FYI, our blowers do have coolant running through them, but just a small amount on the inlet side (mainly for the throttle body coolant path). many people close these up when modding the blower and LIM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Golgo13
Sorry you couldn't figure out I wasn't talking about the horribly designed pre 99 box? People get rid of those just to upgrade to the 99+ one...and if you have a '99+ box all you need is a rubber connector from the TB to a piece of PVC pipe...and then a rubber connector to the stock air box...done it before. Not the rocket science you make it out to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by cleangtp
I am aware of that, but good info for those that aren't.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bio248
but like I said I read something about it on the tbirds and the v6 mustang forums and wanted to look into it further. Might be the same thing...oh well. Won't know til I find the info. I am finding all sorts of engines having m90s swapped on them, alot of information to read and too many bookmarked. I'm not even going to start with the guy on 3rdgen.org whos putting two of them on a tpi 350.
Well I'm disappointed I didn't get it on the dyno. My friends dad called me, (his son is in Iraq), so he's doing all the work on his supercharged prelude. By the time I got over there today it was 2:30pm. He had the supercharger idler brackets completely off and the fuel system all torn down because of a leak he spotted. Dyno was at 6pm an hr away, well we got there at 7pm. I just got home, his prelude was on the dyno for 5 1/2hrs. He runs the full standalone Hondata S300 and the tune that the guy put on the car had it 144hp on a mustang dyno. Mike had to send his original map from his El Paso texas dyno session because obviously the car was putting down more than that being jackson supercharged. Well to make a long story short it ended up at 254hp / 212ftlbs of the torque once he loaded the previous tune back into the S300. Meaning it's making nearly 290 at the crank. The car had tons of heatsoak in it also and was running roughly 205 degrees. Doesn't sound like a lot of hp but the gtp couldn't catch it on the way home. Being a 5sp, weighing 3241lbs, running 9psi and nothing I could do, he kept pulling me. On a dynojet you can add about 7-10% to what a mustang dyno's reading is so really it's more like 260+ to the wheels.
Over the 5+ hrs of talking to the tuner, plus the shop owners I've come to believe they know what the fuk they're talking about. They had a 400hp mazdaspeed6, turbocharged dsm making 500hp, nissan 300z twin turbo making 555hp, a turbocharged regal gs making 420ish hp, a badass old school charger rt making 600+hp, and a mustang making 540hp. Nice shop, clean, great bunch of guys. Charged Mikes dad $300 cash for 5 1/2hrs of tuning.
They were trying to talk me into turboing the gtp, not for me though. The owner of the regal spent a lot of time talking to me about what I should do to my gtp. I told them what I wanted to do and they think I'm heading in the right direction. They said the gains from closing in your open cone on a supercharged car diminish the more you mod it, which I agree totally with. That being said they told me that I'm making way more power than having the stock air box with the intake setup I've got right now, which I totally agree with. All in all I didn't get it on the dyno because it was 1:30am and had hr drive home. The owner of the shop did say they use HP tuners all the time and they could do a custom tune for me with ease and I'd only have to buy 1 credit. They gave my friends dad such a good deal they've earned my business. We will get that long lost info that we're looking for eventually.
I'm not a mind reader, how am I supposed to know what year you were talking about. I've got a 98 so why would I care to waste my money on a stock 99 box?:th_laugh-lol2:Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegtp91
Here's a quote from easy performance.
"The reflectivity coefficients of plastics and rubbers tend to be below 0.06. This means plastics only reflect less than 6% of all the thermal radiation that strikes their surface. This means over 94% of the radiant heat is absorbed by the plastics or rubbers. Consequently, they are undesirable materials when exposed to radiant heat. Maybe not such a good idea to use pvc, abs, or stock intake tubing when trying to keep away radiant heat."
Seems odd everyone is talking up these PLASTIC oem air boxes. Not to mention their pvc/abs plastic tubing they're using to duct the air to the throttle body. It's the worst possible material to use to keep out radiant heat. I got out after my hr drive home to get gas, popped hood and my intake piping and tb coupler were luke warm, not warm, not hot, just barely warm. Seems my open cone isn't sucking in as much hot air as everyone thinks, especially with a cool 54degree night. I'll keep my setup, flow, and intake temps over a stock box anyday!
I have a 98 GTP too. What I would do with what you have now, is to get a 99+ coolant tank and fit that cone further into the corner with a 22° elbow and make a heat shield for that intake.
I tried to run an open cone with my setup and it wasn't doing any better if not worse.
i thought the whole point of a CAI was to reduce heat which in turn reduces knock . . . and also more airflow of course.
the only true cold air intakes ive seen that worked were not nice looking but functional they ran into the air dam or fender and basically used and insulated tube with smooth bends and a layer of insulation wrapped in aluminum tape
not sure what it would take to make a good solid cai that is safe for winter as well
and actally functional
but until i see one or make one im good with me heat suckin open cone
once you get moving, an open cone sees close to ambient temps. it sees these temps even faster with a faster reading MAF (lq4 or one along those lines)
even my wizair would get heat socked once stoped.
with that being said, im going with all out flow.
you also arent understanding that colder air creates more knock because the car is running more timing because of the colder air.Quote:
Originally Posted by tazyboy28
Ok, again I've been called ignorant on the other GP website,
Darkrelic post to me is as follows.
"What are your plans for your GTP? do you want a drag racer, street racer/daily driver, or a circuit track car. If you just want a straight line machine you should listen to the guy about the turbo's. There are good choices for turbo charging your car, but you are going to have to do something about that transmission of yours before you are going to make enough power to run out of "stock airbox"
your sucking air through a straw theory does sound nice, but you clearly have a lot to learn about your GTP. The bigger restrictions are in the manifolds and u-bend, and adding additional hot air into the mix makes it worse. Are you scanning for KR yet? If not you really need to stop being so passionate about your ignorance. You are off to a good start, just don't ruin it and piss off the people on this forum trying to help you. The M90 is only an air pump that doesn't compress the air like a twin screw or a turbo, it only forces more air into the engine than the car can take. It's why these cars typically do better with exhaust mods than intake mods. All of the boost you generate is because of Boost stacking. If you want to add hot air on top of the +200 the supercharger is already producing above ambient then be my guest.... but if you want to drop pulleys remember to go 0.1-0.2" larger than the rule of thumb.
I have scans using my autotap showing runs in the same day ~2hours apart. They aren't dyno runs, or anything to use as bench tested data, but it is data logged from before and after for my hot air intake and with the stock 99+ airbox with a K&N Panel Filter, and then another log on a different day with the custom wizaired cloned airbox on. (I used different insulating materials then they do). It was also done with a tuned 3.4" pulley and SLP ceramic headers/full exhaust.
-My Peak flow from the MAF was ~35.6lbs/min of air at 5751rpm's (2nd gear) with the stock airbox on 3 pulls in a row only deviating +/- .2lb/min .
-My peak flow from the MAF was 36.971lbs/min of air at 5772rpm's (2nd gear) With the hot air intake on the first pull, then 36.412lbs the second pull, and 36.361lbs the third pull same stretch of road and everything.
-My peak flow from the MAF was 37.786lbs/min of air at 5747rpms (2nd gear again) with the airbox over the same piping/filter as the HAI, then 37.392lbs/min second pull, and 37.411 lbs/min the final run. (the larger amounts of air with the airbox are most likely because this was in the morning on a slightly colder day)
What was interesting was what my KR and IAT showed me...
the HAI IAT showed 26+F before the runs, jumped up to 42*F and got back down to 28* before shifting to 3rd and hanging steady at 26*F at over 100mph, the second run got even hotter to 45*F before cooling back down to 27*F before shifting to 3rd. KR peaked at 8* at one point (1st and second gear both, 3rd gear KR was like the others with less than 2*KR). (ZZP's tune runs my car excessively rich, I was 9.9:1 AFR with all 3 tests and my LTFT's locked in at 0)
The CAI IAT showed 18*F before the runs and didn't get above 22*F with <2*KR it was very consistent and would make it much easier to tune.
The stock airbox IAT showed 26*F before the first run and did heat up to 28*F by the third run with KR similar to the CAI airbox setup. (<2*KR)
I originally thought the same way you did before I ran my own tests. The stock airbox is restrictive, but there's a reason we are telling you to put a box on it. Granted I don't have a scan of a Hot air intake on a hot day...... but I may just do that this summer to see how bad it is, another before and after the box comparison. I'll go worse case scenario in August I think. It gets pretty humid and hot then. For every 1*KR you have, you typically lose 2-3hp.... so for me to increase 6*KR that means I'm losing potentially 12-18 mid-range HP by running a HAI. I know, another rule of thumb, but it is something that has been dyno proven again and again."
Here's a pic they posted showing me what they said a HAI caused, I highly doubt it was just an intake :th_laugh-lol3:
http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/t...p/gtp001-2.jpg
there is a point where an open cone will trump any other intake. is it when you're lightly modded? no. is it when youre modded moderately? no. it's when you have run out of other areas to expand and the intake is the final choice of making power or not. when the motor demands more air, are you going to give it more air or use an intake and slightly restrict it? see what im getting at here?
he makes good points because in HIS CAR with HIS MODS it makes his car run better with an intake of some sorts. i sure as **** know if i was running an intercooler, heads, and a big cam that i WOULD NOT have any restrictions in my intake such as a tube with a bend in it.
You guys got all the knowledge, you just need to come up with a list of what type of intake works best in each "stage" or set of mods.
I'm sure with the knowledge of some of these guys on here that's possible. I'm a noob, but have a little knowhow dealing with modding previous cars. Granted this is my first supercharged car but what I've done to my intake setup isn't going to burn or chip pistons on a freakin 3.8 pulley!:th_yawning:Quote:
Originally Posted by Juanmiguel