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05-20-2015
I found the gas station that sells ethanol free gasoline, and someone suggested that it might be non oxygenated. The gas station should know if it is or isn't oxygenated, right? and if it isn't, then it isn't worth buying, right? otherwise, it should be better because the energy rating will be higher.
05-20-2015
Keep in mind that gasoline tends to pretty much all come from the same place. You basically have the branded manufacturers who sell gasoline they refined themselves (i.e. Mobil, Shell, etc.) and then you have a bunch of stations who buy from whatever refiner has the best price that day (Joe's corner gas stations, and many branded gas stations as well).
If you see a Mobil truck at a Mobil station you can be "pretty sure" it is gasoline refined by Mobil. But many Mobil stations can buy from "whoever" as well.
Based on that, I'm skeptical that you truly found ethanol-free gasoline, unless they have their own refineries in place or order a custom-blended gasoline (which would require its own distribution network). Read the fine print super carefully and be skeptical about this claim.
And you can try asking the people that work there, but in many cases I would also be skeptical that they really have a true grasp of what you would be asking them...
-Bob C.
05-20-2015
You can doubt it all you want, but there are still some stations that sell ethanol free fuel, though it is becoming more and more rare.Originally Posted by bobc455
I wish we had E-free fuel around here. It is inefficient, both in hurting fuel mileage, as well as production itself.
05-20-2015
I didn't say that I doubted it - I just advised a lot of skepticism, and I stand by that advice!
99% of consumers could care less, so there is very little impetus for gas stations to sell a more expensive fuel on a super-price-competitive market.
As it is, I have enough problems buying the octane level of fuel that I'm paying for...
05-20-2015
Why don't you want ethanol?
05-20-2015
Ethanol is less efficient
05-20-2015
E10-15 has had no ill effect on my carbed ride that I can discern. As a matter of fact, I was unable to control detonation even on my smog head 455 with 100% gas 91 octane and reduced advance. Can still get that here, but I ran Sunoco 94 until I got in a pinch one day and tried E10 91 premium. Almost no knock (audible-plugs never show any but I think I hear it and didn't build the engine so don't know specs). Took out two degrees of initial and she loves the E10 91 now. No knock and a little less punch. The old car can spare it. Ethanol gas has more knock resistance was my conclusion. The rules recently changed on gas labeling so the confusion is no suprise.
The significant downfall of E-anything I see, and it may have been addressed with additives by now, is it goes stale much faster if you ask me. Gas can't hold water but alcohol can so the corrosive bit may be arguable... but not by me. I just wonder why they don't call it gasohol like in the 70s... I guess people like numbers for names better now.
05-21-2015
Can you provide more info on this statement? Have they changed from the R+M/2 method or something?
Thanks,
-BC
05-21-2015
Maybe I shouldn't say recent. Talking of 2012 when gov't ethanol subsidy expired. Heres the only place I've seen mention:
http://www.hioctanefuel.com/faq.html
... buried halfway down the page and talking about 87 octane.
05-26-2015
Cool, thanks.
Since we're all talking about Octane ratings, I thought I would babble a bit more.
The Octane rating is the % of detonation resistance of pure octane, as measured in a lab. "87 Octane" means that the fuel is 87% as resistant to detonation as pure octane. The higher the octane rating, the more resistant the fuel is to detonation. It does not mean that the gasoline has any kind of Octane in it.
Taking that a few steps further- what it ACTUALLY means in practice is that the fuel is somewhat harder to ignite (which helps it to be detonation-resistant). Therefore, as long as you aren't detonating theoretically you can add a bit of timing since the flame front will be slower- when one droplet of gasoline ignites, it will have a tougher time igniting the adjacent droplet, etc. But in practice you are just compensating for the slower flame front and the extra timing doesn't buy you any performance. What it can allow you to do is run the proper amount of timing for your engine to make optimum power without having to retard your timing to protect against detonation.
Oh yeah, and what it does NOT mean is that the fuel has more power / energy density / whatever. If your car doesn't detonate on 87 Octane, you won't gain anything by running 93 Octane. In fact, you'll have slightly less HP/MPG since you effectively retarded the timing.
The Octane Rating comes from a laboratory test. The "Research" octane rating is done with some archaic motor at 600 RPM. Then they developed a somewhat-more-practical rating system ("Motor" octane rating) of a similar engine running at 900RPM since that is closer to "real world". The two tests will give slightly different results. The gas we buy at the pumps in the USA is called "R+M/2", which is the average of Research + Motor (hence the R+M/2). I think in Europe, they use only the Motor method so their octane ratings at the pump look different. 95 Octane fuel in Europe is NOT the same as 95 Octane fuel in the USA since our rating systems are different.
And don't think you can cheat the system by purchasing 100 Octane fuel a the airport. It will have detonation resistance, but it has an even slower flame front than automotive-grade fuels, since airplane motors typically run at WOT at lower RPM (i.e. 2500RPM). Airplane fuels generally lose power for us automotive folks when you get above about 4000 RPM, compared to a 100-Octane race fuel. It will still work fine, but your HP (torque) will be down. And obviously aviation fuel tends to be heavily leaded to protect the valves.
Auto-parts store Octane boosters are generally hugely misunderstood. A bottle which will claim to raise your octane by three points will raise it from 91 to 91.3. Most people read the "three points" and assume their 91-Octane will become 94-Octane but in reality the increase is barely worth talking about and certainly not worth the money.
In general, blending fuels will linearly raise the Octane level. So if you combine 80% of 91-Octane with 20% of 101-Octane, you'll get about 93 Octane. So a few gallons of unleaded race fuel can give you some safety margin at the track if you would like. (Plus, since the race fuel is rated for automotive use, it will do great at the higher RPM's).
If you want a relatively effective octane boost, you can add about 10% Toluene or Xylene to your tank of gas. I think Toluene is 117 Octane and Xylene is 115 Octane. Both Toluene and Xylene are components of gasoline anyhow, so they won't cause any harm. Gasoline is typically a blend of about 175 components, so if you use too much straight Toluene/Xylene, you will dilute the other active components of gasoline (lubricants, etc.) so you want to consider using real Race Fuel at that point. I've heard of people blending up to 30% of toluene/xylene with no ill effects. However Toluene and Xylene both affect flame-front speed, so if you are tweaking every single HP you might want to play with your ignition timing (but that's probably not worth the effort for 99% of us).
05-20-2015
Yep. Delta sonic sells its. Costs way more too
05-20-2015
I know in Oklahoma there are a lot of stations that sell ethanol free fuel. I Drove from Houston to Shawnee and on the way back fueled up on the ethanol free to see what if my gas mileage would increase. It was slightly higher than on my trip up there, but there were too many variables so I threw it out. I had a little over an eighth of E10 so I couldn't say exactly. I know when we started using blended fuel down here I did notice a drop in gas mileage as the average dropped about .3 of a point.
Jeff
05-20-2015
Ethanol is not a bad thing it burns cleaner and helps keep your engine cleaner for longer. sure your mileage won't be as great but long term effects of ethanol are way more positive then you'd think. **** 100%gas
05-20-2015
ethanol is more corrosive, and attracts water, so I do not believe that ethanol is as good as you suggest. as far as it burning cleaner, who really cares? the amount of pollution emitted by one vehicle is insignificant in comparison to other things.
05-20-2015
The biggest desire I could see for 100% ethanol free fuel would be in a small engine. Like a lawn mower. Something that sits for a long time between uses and still has a carburetor.
05-20-2015
Gas mileage is the biggest desire I see.
05-20-2015
Are u really on that corrosive ****. sounds like your still believing oil company propoganda. not one person I know on e85 ever had corrosive effects from e85 including myself who has ran it for 2+years
It burning cleaner is a refrence to your engine gas burs dirty as hell compared to ethanol which keeps your internals a lot cleaner than gas ever could
05-20-2015
Really? Really? Are you kidding me? Not corrosive? I guess you haven't had to change fule pump sending units in any of your older cars then did you? As far as cleaner burning I have worked on many many engines and any properly maintained engine will be just as clean as one running E10. I have taken enough engines apart to know. You see any reciprocating engine aircraft burning E anything?
Jeff
05-20-2015
First off these older cars u refer to were running on gasoline anyway. E85 can't be called the factor in your b.s statement. a properly maintained engine engine runs cleaner with ethanol that is fact. And u know it. However we know 99% of vehicles on the road aren't properly maintained. Then lastly I'm aviation to. A airplane engine can run off whatever the engineer wants it to run off. For instance our mq-1c runs off of jp8 Dieseal fuel. So if someone want to run a plane on E85 they could but the complications of storage would come into play. Av gas is completely differentbecause you need something with stupid high octane to overcome the lack of oxygen at regular flight levels for optimum performance
05-20-2015
We weren't talking about E85 anyway it was straight gas vs E10
Run cleaner and engine internals cleaner is I think where we were differing.
if you are looking for a cheap high octane fuel, by all means E85, if you are looking for mileage straight gas.
I am not in the aircraft industry, my father is, I grew up around all types of small aircraft including rotary wing. I have helped to build a Bell 47J and a Jet Ranger. I've rebuilt an IO360 when I was still in highschool under my dads supervision. We had aircraft at our house, rebuilt a Cessna 150 replacing the firewall and belly skins that someone landed in a muddy field. I'm not new to aircraft.
you know that little preflight check where you see if there is any water in the tank? Well what would happen if you tried to run fuel that contains a significant amount of alcohol in it? Well it absorbs water and wouldn't show up, then you climb out on a cold winter day and get to cruise altitude and have the screens ice over and the carb freeze. You can't pull over on the side of a cloud to fix it. Aircraft have to work all day everyday no exceptions that's why they have redundant magnetos.
the engineer has nothing to do with certification or devation from what the aircraft is to use, the FAA has that authority. My dad actually had to testify in a case involving a gas supplier using car gas instead of avgas.
High octane for high altitude? That's absurd, the reason that higher octane is used is that when your climbing out you don't want to have any detonation, you can't just let off the throttle you are committed and are past the point of no return.
at altitude there is less air that is true so less fuel is used to maintain manifold pressure and EGT. Octane has nothing to due with altitude, in fact they are inversely proportional as altitude increases octane needed decreases. Just look at octane ratings in Utah or Colorado the low octane will usually be 85 and a high of 91 where here in Houston our minimum is 87 and 94-95 being higher octane. So "crazy high octane ratings" is a false statement.
SgtMarshall, you could be run JP8 in a pinch, but it does not have the lubrication properties of diesel so you'll likely kill your fuel pump running too much.
when my dad worked for customs they had one recip engine plane (Cessna 210 iirc) when they defueled the plane they would dump it into 55gallon barrels and my dad would fill up with 100LL, (love the smell) one time someone put some jetA in with it. My dad noticed the valves singing on the way home and was not able to shut the engine off when he pulled into the driveway. It was quite comical as I could hear the engine rev up and drop down as he tried to kill it. Ended up smothering it with a rag.
Jeff
Last edited by J57ltr; 05-20-2015 at 09:40 PM.
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