Need Advising on Pioneer 12in Subwoofers

[burgundybullet]

Alright folks, heres the deal. I just got back from Japan not too long ago and have a little extra money left over that I had alotted for the trip. I figured I'd treat myself to some more sound stuff. Now Ive got one single 10in Pioneer sub right now and have had it for almost 2 years. Thinking its upgrade time. I don't especially want glass shattering bass but on the other hand I dont want to have to upgrade again. I figure the subs that I am looking at should suffice. I spent the last 3 days surfing the web and I'm pretty set on getting 2 12in Pioneer Champion Series Pro subwoofers (TS-W3003D4) http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...PRO/TS-W3003D4. I found these on day one of the search and feel like this is the way to go. However, I've spent 3 days trying to figure out how to wire these and what amp to get. At first I was thinking I needed a 2 Channel amp (1 channel/ sub) that put out anywhere from 450-900watts/ channel at 4 ohms (per Crutchfields 75%-150% suggestion of the 600watt RMS that the Pioneer has). I couldnt really find quite what I was looking for for ~$100. I did find 4 channel bridgeable amps that would work that put out 700watts at 4ohm/ channel (or at least what I thought would work). Then after doing some more reasearch today (day 3) I found something about really put a wrinkle in things. I read about someone using a monoblock amp with 2 of their subs and it was better to do that than run a 2 or 4 channel amp. I guess I would prefer the monoblock but really dont know what to consider. If I follow that 75%-150% of the RMS that would mean Id need an amp that can put out anywhere from 450watt-900watt / sub (900watt-1800watt for both).

Now another thing is that the subs have a dual voice cone meaning it has 4 jacks to hook into. I started poking around the internet on what I would do to hook them up using Rockford Fosgates wiring diagrams and other wiring diagrams and noticed that by running them differently you can change the resistance (ohms). Then now instead of needing a 4ohm amp you can use a 1ohm. Now Im beginning to second guess myself some more. And how many ohms is it per set of jacks? Any upsides to running a certain number of ohms over another. (Ive read the higher the ohms the better the clarity)

As far as reviews for the Pioneers they have been mixed. It seems like its either a one star or 5 stars. 5 being more aboundant. The 1 stars all state about how the subs blew in like a week or less than one month. This makes me feel like its install error and using the wrong amp wattage/ ohms that is causing this. I cant believe that Pioneer would have a faulty product like some people seem to be stating. Any input is appreciated on this.



General Features: 12in Pioneer Champion Series Pro subwoofer (TS-W3003D4)

• 12" Dual 4 Ohm Champion Series Pro Subwoofer
• Power Handling:
  
  • Peak: 2,000 watts
  • RMS: 600 watts
  
  
• IMPP composite seamless woofer cone
• Dual-layer elastic polymer surround
• Spring-loaded speaker terminal posts
• Perfect for a ported or sealed enclosure
• Features larger magnet combined with a dual spider design
• Frequency Response: 20-80 Hz
• Top-mount depth: 6-9/10"
• Sensitivity: 96 dB

What I'd like to know

1) Is each set of jacks on the subwoofer 4 ohm or is it 2 ohm for each pair?
2) Can I put each sub in a seperate box and still use the center pass through (2000 GT) or at least 5in of the centermost part?
3) What amp to run for about $150 tops? (Mono, 2chan, 4chan) (#of watts) (Class? AB D?)



I'd like to apologize as I really didnt want to have to come here and bother you guys as I thought I could figure it out myself but the more I read the more confused I get. Hope you can all understand.

[burgundybullet]

Alrighty hold on a sec. I may be on to something now. (maybe). I was able to finally find a diagram of how to wire them to get 1ohm.

So if I use this here amp http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pioneer-GM-D...4c62c1&vxp=mtr that puts out 1200watt at 1 ohm would that be what I need to power these?? Or if I wire it according to the above diagram will each sub not draw 600watts anymore?

[Russosaur]

Get a monoblock amp that of good a quality brand so it actually puts out what its rated at and that matches or exceeds the rms rating of then subs along with being able to support xxx RMS @1 Ohm or as per the ohms you want to run.

1. Each set of of + and - terminals is 4 ohm so as per the wiring diagram you listed it can run at 1ohm. The subs are DVC right?

2. You can put each in a separate box, but you would need to run wires from box to box to wire then subs down to 1 ohm so I would just build/get a dual box would look cleaner but its gonns eat a lot of trunk space either way. Make sure you get a box that meets the specs the subs call per cu.ft. As example 5 cu ft for sealed or 8 cu ft for ported. Pioneer should have that info listed on their website.

3. For 150 your gonna be kinda hard to find an amp that puts out that power (1200w rms) and be a good brand to actually put out its rated power, while you dont need that big of an amp its best to avoid a lot under so your not getting clipping and pushing the amp to hard which can blow the amp and or speakers.

Edit: hopefully you understand some of that and I didn't confuse the piss out of you.

Sent from the Milky Way

[burgundybullet]

Sooo my next question, is Pioneer considered a good brand for amps? I would be willing to spend the $175 for the one I posted the link for if it works with these subs if wired to 1ohm. As far as the subs, if I wired them like that for 1ohm together are they still going to need 1200watt or is it going to be more or less?

The subs are DVC. I just confused myself and thought about what it meant by 4ohms too much. I get it now.

I still need to somehow fit fishing poles through the passthrough thats the only reason I ask. Thanks for the input. I will have to figure out something.

And your statements arent nearly as confusing as the clusterf*ck of information I sifted through. lol

[Russosaur]

I haven't been into car audio for a few years but i would call Pioneer probably mid tier on my list of brands. That amp looks good from the features, key on being its CEA compliant so it should put out its rated power. Get some nice 4 or bigger gauge power and ground wire (smaller the number the beefier). I recommend KnuKonceptz, I got an amp install kit from them included RCAs, remote wire (but it was tiny to I used some thicker wire I had laying around, 17ft power (4ga) 3ft ground, and like 50ft of speaker wire and inline fuse. Only thing it didn't have was a battery terminal bolt you need because you cant get another ring on the stock terminal (I tried). Might also want to concider the big 3 if you get light dimming issues. I'm running 500w rms with no issues tho. Ask away, I did the whole car audio research thing for weeks and then dove into my install, its pretty straight forward. I can clear up some questions if you have more.

4ga, KnuKonceptz Power Wire


Battery terminal post bolt thing, can be had at autozone for like 7 bucks.



Sent from the Milky Way

[burgundybullet]

Alright, Thanks. I put in a new head unit and new kenwood speakers over 2 years ago now. I did a lot of reading on how to go about hooking everything up for that and I understood all that. It was just the ohms thing really had me worried with this and got me second guessing myself. Last thing I needed was to overdrive the subs or burn out an amp. I should be able to do it now. Thanks again!

[Russosaur]

When setting the gains on the amp I used a 50hz test tone a DMM and some maths. Basically put the headunit at like 85% volume just so its not 100 and probably clipping. Do some maths on how many volts is at X amount of watts. Hook the DMM up to the amp but dont hook up the speakers. Play the 50Hz, raise HU to 85% or so then adjust the gain till you reach the correct voltage. I would google setting gains with a DMM and if you don't have one its a really handy tool to have.

Sent from the Milky Way

[burgundybullet]

Alright. I gotta figure out what to do for a box yet. Thinking I'll just make my own. Ive been looking around and just not really finding what I want. Ive seen lots of how to's online about building ported boxes and am comparing them to figure out what to do. Im also keeping in mind the suggested specs from Pioneer.

[Russosaur]

You can look for built boxes just try to find one close to then specs but its not nesseaary. I forget the website but you can design one with lxWxH all custom and you can adjust port lengths for tuning frequencys and it gives you a list of what you need as in exact cuts and such. Search up subwoofer enclosure calculator or builder, hopefully you find it.

Sent from the Milky Way

[burgundybullet]

Its RE AUDIO box calculator. I came across it and figured I could use it to help me build. Works pretty slick! Just not sure what Im supposed to tune the box for frequency wise. Still looking for how to figure that out.

[BillBoost37]

I'll second the knuconceptz wiring. IDK what it is.. I'm running one 5 channel amp and then have the sub down at 2 ohm. Never had dimming, never did big three

[Russosaur]

This is basically copied and pasted from a car audio forum I would look for around look for 35-30hz as from what iv read as a general medium. But your gonna wanna do that research you self and determine what you want. Or you make it easy and run them in a sealed box with the correct dimensions which means you dont nees to worry about ports and tuning its basically a box. I'm running a sealed and I like it if I upgrade again I'm gonna try ported but a ported box takes up more room iirc.

"This affects the frequency response of the speaker.
Around the tuning frequency, you get an increase in the output.
If the box is tuned to 30Hz, there will be increased output at this frequency. The driver will appear not to move as the output will be coming from the port.
Below the tuning frequency the driver will begin to unload (behave as though it it not in a box). The extent will be determined by how much power and lower the driver is pushed."

"When you drive your speaker below the tuning frequency the port allows the driver to unload so that it can move much more in each direction with less power thus making it very easy to push the driver past its mechanical limit. You'll notice in SQ people will tune their box to a low frequency like 28 or 30 and and very rarely run there sub below that frequency so the driver rarely unloads. In SPL people will tune their box to a higher frequency like 40 and run their sub below the tuning frequency ALOT, moving more air and thus sounding LOUDER yet worse.

I like to think about it like the redline in my RX7. My car LOVES to travel just below the redline. That is where I see the best performance in this car and as I approach redline things just get better and better. The redline is your tuning frequency and the closer you drive to that frequency the better your driver performs yet when you pass the redline you have entered a territory where the mechanical and thermal limits are being pushed closer to the max and your performance begins to degrade.

So the answer to your question is NO, the world will not implode if you push your driver past the tuning frequency but if you do it to much your driver may explode.

Keep in mind... I still have yet to experience a ported enclosure in the car. Hopefully not for long :-)"

Sent from the Milky Way

[burgundybullet]

For the most part i heard keep it about 32 so thats the same. To be honest I dont listen to any rap or hip hop. I just listen to rock and country. Alot of the newer rock stuff has a harder beat to it which is what Im going to try to get out of this. It might be easier to stick with the sealed box for now and if I want to change later I can.

[Russosaur]

I would do that, plus I listen to all types of music, country, rock, rap, scremo, metal ect. I found no problems with my sealed box.

Sent from the Milky Way

[burgundybullet]

Thanks again for all your help. I just went and ordered the subs and amp. I greatly appreciate it!

[Russosaur]

If you need help on where to run the wires, I can show the proper way to run them vs what I did lol.

Sent from the Milky Way

[burgundybullet]

Alright so I just looked up some specs on the knu konceptz wire kit at 4ga and I think I need something bigger. Pioneers amp that I bought says that you should add a fuse that is 150a right near the battery. With that being said, the wire would need to be rated at or above 150a correct? knu conceptz 4ga is only good to 100a with a 20ft length. Knu also suggests an 80a fuse inline for their wire.

[Russosaur]

You may need to get the 50 buck kit its got 120a fuse and better wire pure copper for the more power compare to the copper clad aluminum (CCA) the cheaper kit has. The 120 is exactly the fuse rating of the amp so if it blows the 120 you might have to get a 150. But your gonna need the more expensive one just to be safe. Power wire and fuses is not a place to cut corners because it may toast your car good if it goes wrong also keep the the wire runs short as possible.
Edit: I forgot the link lol
http://www.amazon.com/KnuKonceptz-Ko...mp+install+kit
Sent from the Milky Way

[burgundybullet]

Just got the new size ordered up. Thanks again. Glad I read the online owners manual. Wouldnt have been good if I got the other one without realising that.

[burgundybullet]

Everything should be here by the end of the week. Amp and wiring is here and subs are supposed to show up today. Will be getting the rest of the material to build the sub box tomorrow and will start building those. In the mean time I've been doing some last minute poking around to try to figure out this wiring of both subs to the amp. I was planning on wiring the subs to 1ohm which would leave me with a positive and a negative lead to hook into the amp. However, the amp has 2 speaker level outputs so now Im confused on how this hooks up and what the amp puts out at each output. I want to get 1200watts @ 1ohm so it can power both my 12in DVC subs at 600watts a piece.

This is all the owners manual says about it and I don't quite understand it.

This is what it shows for power at different ohms
1 x 500W (4Ω)
1 x 800W (2Ω)
1 x 1200W (1Ω) <--- the one I want


So basically if anyone knows which of the 2 sets of speaker outputs I'm supposed to use to get my 1200watts @ 1Ω thatd be great. Thanks!