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04-04-2010
Here's a read that can help people understand the relationship between installation, cross-over points, and stage height.
The first question that needs to be asked...how do we localize objects vertically? Now here's a link. It doesn't answer the question I just asked but brings out a lot of different variables that coincide with my question.
Buwalda Hybrids International Bulletin Board • View topic - My views on tweeters and crossovers
04-04-2010
Article is kinda not verified.Originally Posted by I800C0LLECT
And again, I have legs, they block the kick panel position from being useful at ALL.
04-04-2010
Key word...
REFLECTIONS
Verified?...it's the reader who gets to research and verify. Who cares about authors and credentials...
04-04-2010
Article is kinda not verified.
And again, I have legs, they block the kick panel position from being useful at ALL.
I'll admit, I don't believe our vehicles are opportune for kick panels but some vehicles work very well with that application. I'm still trying to figure out a "good" installation for our vehicles. I really don't wanna go through the process of deadening doors n' such.
My a/d/s/ speakers use a 6db slope for the mid so I'm wondering how well they'd work with a tweeter in the A-pillar. I believe the tweeter is a 12db slope.
Last edited by I800C0LLECT; 04-04-2010 at 09:20 PM.
04-04-2010
who gives a ****ing rats ass about reflections?
You aren't even mounting the speakers on axis so its already ****ed up to start with.
Who cares about what crossover frequencies you choose if you won't hear it properly anyways? Just do fourth order Linkwitz-riely x-overs to maximize power handling and forget about it.
Reflections shouldn't matter if you mount your speakers far enough away from surfaces that cause them.
Example: lots of people say use mats on your dash, I tried it, no effect since my speakers are on the front lip of the dash.
The ONLY change in the sound I have from windows up or down is baffle step around 300-500 Hz since my midwoofers are right beside the windows.
I plan to move them so the baffle step remains constant regardless of window position.
If you're on axis with your drivers, reflections aren't that bad at all.
Try it yourself before you assume that all these people are telling the truth.
These are the same people who CHOOSE to mount their speakers facing each other right beside the windsheild instead of on axis.
Who uses the factory crossovers?
Better yet, who uses passive crossovers these days?
04-05-2010
it plays the mids and highs works for me lol
04-05-2010
Do you realize how poorly glass reflects the music? You realize how much that can screw up your sound?
What dream do you live in that everybody can mount speakers in the same manner as you? Last I remember, you were laughed out of a thread after posting your "install". Some people are trying to maximize performance without showing the world their hardware.You aren't even mounting the speakers on axis so its already ****ed up to start with.
"...won't hear it properly..." Speaker and listening characteristics are subjective to each individual. Cross overs are very important when choosing raw drivers and install locations. Come on matt, you're not an idiot.Who cares about what crossover frequencies you choose if you won't hear it properly anyways? Just do fourth order Linkwitz-riely x-overs to maximize power handling and forget about it.
Do I need to refer back to that troll of an install you maintain? Again, locations appeal to people for cosmetic reasons too. You can make many locations sound very good when installed and crossed correctly.Reflections shouldn't matter if you mount your speakers far enough away from surfaces that cause them.
The idea is to help individuals with what THEY WANT. Don't just barrade them because they didn't follow your installation ideas perfectly.
I wasn't talking about that and I've never brought it up. Let's talk about what I said...not most people.Example: lots of people say use mats on your dash, I tried it, no effect since my speakers are on the front lip of the dash.
I'm not gonna revisit your install again...The ONLY change in the sound I have from windows up or down is baffle step around 300-500 Hz since my midwoofers are right beside the windows.
Good luck. Perhaps you'll be able to post your trials.I plan to move them so the baffle step remains constant regardless of window position.
Attempting to simplify car audio into "on axis" vs. "everybody else is stupid" is pretty narrow minded. I think you've been tainted by that audio site you frequent. Sometimes the acquisition of knowledge can retard progress.If you're on axis with your drivers, reflections aren't that bad at all.
Try it yourself before you assume that all these people are telling the truth.
These are the same people who CHOOSE to mount their speakers facing each other right beside the windsheild instead of on axis.
Due to our limited understanding of sounds and our inability to maintain the equipment necessary to understand our personal vehicles acoustic environment; car audio will always amount to trial and error. I agree that on-axis dismisses a lot of variables but some of us aren't keen on your install Matt.
Most people use the cross overs that come with their speakers. My configuration doesn't allow me a 6db slope unless I use those passives. However, my tweeter is in the stock location and therefore I need a steeper slope. But, if a/d/s/ was assuming most locations would utilize a good distance between tweets and mids then 6db slopes might be opportune for matching the midrange freq's with the tweets. If that were the case, it might allow a possible on-axis A pillar install while keeping mids in the doors. Anyways...it's all just thought and theory. You never know until you put it in and tune...Who uses the factory crossovers?
Better yet, who uses passive crossovers these days?
04-05-2010
I see why no one bothers with car audio.
Its all just a waste of time.
Home audio is a bigger joke. People spend more time talking about theory than listening to music and car audio is no better. Seems the internet in general is that way.
Last edited by matt5112; 04-05-2010 at 09:26 PM.
04-06-2010
The honest truth is that you were able to install in optimum locations. Many "SQ competitors" have used those same cues. The downside to your install is trying to integrate those locations into something that matches the dashboard. I know you're more of a purist and will take function over form but many people just do not want their car to be perceived as "ugly".
My own personal inspiration is fueled by the idea that I'm sometimes in locations that aren't too friendly if you leave something out in the front seat of your car. Therefore, I really don't want to advertise that I have something "different".
I haven't really delved into the home audio arena but I noticed in several forums(avs and others) that it turns into a pissing contest between who can spend the most money in perceived "deals".
Car Audio is a b. You either love a challenge or you don't give a damn about quality.
04-06-2010
or you like a little challenge but will settle for less Q and more SPL lol
04-06-2010
very good point
04-10-2010
Hence my next idea.... Modded door skins so no mods to the dash but modded door skins so they don't look completely out of place.
Honestly, I didn't really like my car when I put the speakers on the dash. Now I actually like it so I'd like it to look nice.
As for being laughed out of a thread, I can tell you honestly anyone who laughed has NO idea what sound quality is and go **** a goat for all I care. I'm FULLY AWARE it looks worse than a 1967 Z/28 camaro riced out but it sounds pretty ****ing amazing for a car. Better than anything I've ever heard.
On axis is VERY important since you basically give up ALL tonality over 2000 Hz if you don't obey it. If you care at ALL about the tonality, then you'd obey the fact that you MUST be on axis. If not, who gives a fvck as long as it meets your goals? Thats all audio is period. making you happy.
Just don't claim "SQ" when you do a kick install or factory position install and claim its all that when really its a pile of **** that you attempted to polish up with fancy equipment.
Rob, go take a look at MUCH older threads on peter euro's forum... much more informational versus bashing. The old threads actually have useful information... the successful home audio section also has useful info but you have to granted entry based on either your posts on there specifically or on other forums.... Its very easy, I and I couldn't see why you couldn't get in there.
I ****ed up my dash, but my system gets louder and does it cleaner than any system I've heard around here and actually has some imaging despite stereo being a somewhat pointless goal in car audio.
Stage height is NOT the issue with the concept of being on axis.
its ENTIRELY due to the frequency response of the tweeter and the nature of the car audio environment.
If you want to have somewhat equal tonality in your left an right channels (which i can safely bet you have the exact opposite at the moment) then you need to AVOID refections as much as possible. Hence the concept of on axis. It partially negates the effect of reflections by ensuring the first sounds that reach your ears are the ORIGINAL ones, not ones modified due to reflections. I forget the actual term but there is an effect that causes sounds heard just slightly after the first one to be ignored since your brain has already recognized that sound and has instated sort of a buffer to prevent information overload and increase its ability to determine WHERE instead of WHAT.
Audio is fun if taken lightly but its a ****ing load of bull**** when discussed on the internet or with anyone who doesnt appreciate soundstage or tonality.
04-12-2010
Soundstage and tonality is what the listener makes it. I've heard some setups that sound absolutely amazing, but may sound like crap to the next.
At my dB Drag show this weekend there was a SQ competition booth there. I watched some of it, and the judging. What a joke. It's all about pictures, and install.. and MAYBE 10 seconds of a judge listening to the sound...
Does the same apply to home audio.. where you say to avoid reflections? Everything I've read, and have been told (by the local theater) is that I need as many reflections as possible, that's why walls and ceilings are never flat in a theater...
04-12-2010
In a theatre or an opera hall, the shape of the room is acoustically designed so that sound is projected so that you don't need amplification or as much amplification.
When reproducing sound, you want to avoid reflections as much as possible to allow the speakers to do the projecting for you.
or
If you can't avoid it, then you treat the room.
Can't treat your windows, so theres no point in any acoustic treatment in a car.
And no, i'm not talking about things rattling.
Soundstage is either there or it isn't. The depth or scope of it can vary but its presence does not.Soundstage and tonality is what the listener makes it.
Tonality, I completely agree. Its whatever sounds best to you.
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