Thread: Why Cold Air Intakes Matter

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  1. #1 Why Cold Air Intakes Matter 
    GTX Level Member hensleya1's Avatar
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    Why Cold Air Intakes Matter

    Thanks to Brian Turner of Dynotune Motorsports (Dyno Brian) for getting my thinking cap on. Also a shout out to Dan (dsmuts), Clay (CapnBreakAlot), Matt (AlphaGP), and others who were there at the 3800 dyno day and spoke to me afterwards, plus others I’m sure I’m forgetting.

    Put your nerd caps on, and hear me out.

    It’s common belief on here and other 3800 boards that the intake doesn’t really matter. Even the safely modding your 3800 thread recommends you not spring the $200+ for a JMB/Wizaired/K&N intake and instead take a trip to your local Home Depot and build your own intake for $30. The dyno backs this up, as it proves little difference in wheel horsepower between an “open cone” and a Thrasher intake box.

    But does that tell the whole story? My inclination is no. This is for one critical reason – the intake air temperature sensor [hereinafter referred to as IAT] is located in the intake tubing, forward of the throttle body. This is almost always the case for any 3800 motor – even my setup with a Northstar throttle body and LQ4 MAF places the IAT sensor forward of the throttle body. It is axiomatic of any tune that the computer would advance or retard ignition timing via a post-main table modifier of some sort to compensate, as a high IAT would be more prone to predetonation inside the cylinder than a lower IAT.

    This is fine on naturally aspirated engines, where the incoming air comes through the throttle body, through the plastic upper intake manifold, and into the engine from there. It has little chance to heat up from either engine heat or any other reason.

    However, when the car is supercharged and especially intercooled, things start to get strange. It’s been discussed ad nauseam here that the Eaton M90’s are inefficient and radically increase the air intake temperature, simply on account of it quickly compressing the air and increasing the stored energy inside of it. The problem arises here because GM didn’t relocate the IAT sensor to be after the supercharger (or after the intercooler if you have one). Meaning the stock tune can only compensate for high IAT’s in front of the throttle body, but the computer has absolutely no idea what the “true” IAT is – that is to say, the temperature of the air after it’s been compressed by the supercharger.

    There’s some connection between IAT’s in front of the throttle body and the IAT at the point where it enters the engine, but short of drilling a hole through my intercooler core and inserting the IAT sensor there, I will never know for sure exactly how effective the intercooler is at cooling the incoming air. All I will know for sure is when I get KR after a sustained WOT pull and the intercooler heat soaks, the intercooler is no longer doing it’s job. But if I were to relocate the IAT post-intercooler, I could plausibly have the computer automatically yank timing once it sensed high IAT’s, precluding the need for KR. Of course, without that sensor and attempting to tune, the tuner is simply shooting in the dark – adding timing and fuel until he runs into KR and then backing off.

    ***

    To bring us back to earth – and why I will make my case for a cold air intake versus an open cone – the lower the IAT is in front of the throttle body, it obviously stands that the IAT will be lower post-supercharger (all things equal). Lower IAT’s mean less predetonation and less KR. That allows me to add timing, and thus add power for as long as the IAT remains low.

    And now the fallacy behind the “Dyno Science” thread is explained – of course the car will make roughly the same power with an open cone versus a Thrasher box or other CAI setup – because the tune remained the same during all pulls. Using a CAI, the owner of the car failed to re-tune his car and add more timing to take advantage of the lower IAT… of course he’s not going to make any more power.

    ***

    At the 3800 dyno day, I had a Wizaired box on my car. It’s something I’ve always poked fun at, saying “I can’t believe the previous owner cranked out $200 on this thing when I can build my own intake for $40.” But on the rollers, I had IAT’s in the high 60’s while Dan (dsmuts) had IAT’s somewhere around 110* using an open cone.

    He and I have similar builds as of November 2014 (S1x, Gen V, FSIC, headers, catbacks, 3.29 gears) but he also has additional mods (1.8 roller rockers, stage 3 heads, and a 2.8 pulley vs my 3.0 pulley). But it was my car that put out 8 more wheel horsepower on the same dyno… 323 versus 315. There are independent factors that contributed to this (he encountered significant blow-by during WOT pulls) so it may be impossible to draw any firm conclusion from this that “Wizaired added power.” But I think the opportunity to add timing due to lower IAT’s is definitely a window of opportunity to add power solely on account of a cold air intake.

    Do I really think that changing your intake alone is worth the horsepower? I wouldn’t go out of my way to do it, because you would not only need to buy the cold air box ($200+) and then would need to retune the car ($100+) and may well only add a degree or two of timing. While on the dyno each degree added on my car added 6 wheel horsepower… say if a CAI enabled to add you two degrees of timing at WOT would it be worth the $300 to add 12 wheel horsepower? The butt dyno is unlikely to notice the difference, but your wallet certainly will - unless you build your car from the ground up with the intent of having a CAI and tuning accordingly.

    I can think of numerous other ways to get a better return on your money, but just that it’s out there – I think a CAI can increase power over an open cone, provided you re-tune afterwards.
    Last edited by hensleya1; 11-03-2014 at 01:14 AM.
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  2. #2 Re: Why Cold Air Intakes Matter 
    GT Level Member Hardonyomom's Avatar
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    Very informative and well written. I think you could benefit by keeping the IAT located in a cooler spot. I read an article just earlier today where a guy had wizaired and routed his IAT through the heat resistant box into the intake. Im in at loss for what the exact word is for it.
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  3. #3 Re: Why Cold Air Intakes Matter 
    Moderator DanPrixGTP's Avatar
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    Someone I've seen on the facebook groups, have actually relocated their IAT sensor by the intake runners in the LIM. You may want to get a hold of that person, and hear his .02 cents on the idea.
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  4. #4 Re: Why Cold Air Intakes Matter 
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    Bill has it in his thread on modding a LIM iirc
    Edit: Oh i get what you mean to like see the difference if any?

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  5. #5 Re: Why Cold Air Intakes Matter 
    GTP Level Member 231FUN's Avatar
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    Fairly easy to relocate the IAT by drilling and tapping the LIM if you so desire.
    There are threads on here about it, including which GM IAT you need to get the job done.
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  6. #6 Re: Why Cold Air Intakes Matter 
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    If its like anything else GM on older stuff like 3800 platforms and earlier LS stuff uses IAT sensor and other values to calcuate whats called MAT (manifold air temperature) and use that accordingly for fueling adjustments. There is no need to need to relocate the IAT, however if you want it for your data then thats your bag. On newer GM supercharged v8 vehicles 2 physical IAT sensors are used to give the PCM realtime information of pre and post blower temps.
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  7. #7 Re: Why Cold Air Intakes Matter 
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    Quote Originally Posted by 91parkave View Post
    If its like anything else GM on older stuff like 3800 platforms and earlier LS stuff uses IAT sensor and other values to calcuate whats called MAT (manifold air temperature) and use that accordingly for fueling adjustments. There is no need to need to relocate the IAT, however if you want it for your data then thats your bag. On newer GM supercharged v8 vehicles 2 physical IAT sensors are used to give the PCM realtime information of pre and post blower temps.
    I was under the impression the 741 didn't do that, and it wasn't until the LS2 era that the temp calculations appeared.

    To the OP:

    How do you know you're heatsoaking your intercooler? Are you monitoring your intercooler fluid temps as well?
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  8. #8 Re: Why Cold Air Intakes Matter 
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    I don't mean to start a pissing match here but both the OP's dyno and Dsmuts dyno beg the question why are you not running E85?

    Some will throw me to the wolves saying im bias because I bought gregs cars or whatever blah blah. I don't see the benefits of the added mods intercooler ported heads rockers.

    Solid numbers from both cars but this all seems to be in the same category as running your car down the strip on ****ty street tires....... Why not use every advantage available for example drag radials and E85!???
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  9. #9 Re: Why Cold Air Intakes Matter 
    GTX Level Member hensleya1's Avatar
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    All right, multi-quote for all the cool kids, and I'll add some additional thoughts/hopefully to clarify the original post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardgainer View Post
    Very informative and well written. I think you could benefit by keeping the IAT located in a cooler spot. I read an article just earlier today where a guy had wizaired and routed his IAT through the heat resistant box into the intake. Im in at loss for what the exact word is for it.
    It's not so much "a cooler spot" than it is "a more accurate spot". Knowing the IAT right after it passes the air filter is completely useless in determining the actual intake temperature when it enters the engine.... because in a supercharged application there's this Eaton blower making heat in between the IAT sensor and the engine... While there is almost certainly a correlation between the two, it's not an exact science (at least not as exact as placing an IAT sensor in the LIM would be).

    Quote Originally Posted by DanPrixGTP View Post
    Someone I've seen on the facebook groups, have actually relocated their IAT sensor by the intake runners in the LIM. You may want to get a hold of that person, and hear his .02 cents on the idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Russosaur View Post
    Bill has it in his thread on modding a LIM iirc
    Quote Originally Posted by 231FUN View Post
    Fairly easy to relocate the IAT by drilling and tapping the LIM if you so desire.
    There are threads on here about it, including which GM IAT you need to get the job done.
    It's definitely a squirrel worth chasing, although it would be most effective if you combined it with a tune that automatically modified timing based on IAT, and allow you to eke out a few more ponies for as long as possible.


    Quote Originally Posted by 91parkave View Post
    If its like anything else GM on older stuff like 3800 platforms and earlier LS stuff uses IAT sensor and other values to calcuate whats called MAT (manifold air temperature) and use that accordingly for fueling adjustments. There is no need to need to relocate the IAT, however if you want it for your data then thats your bag. On newer GM supercharged v8 vehicles 2 physical IAT sensors are used to give the PCM realtime information of pre and post blower temps.
    Quote Originally Posted by matt5112 View Post
    I was under the impression the 741 didn't do that, and it wasn't until the LS2 era that the temp calculations appeared.
    This sounds like what GM should have done with the L67 setup, but cheaped out (because L67's were produced in far greater numbers than their new SC'd V8s ever will be).


    Quote Originally Posted by matt5112 View Post
    How do you know you're heatsoaking your intercooler? Are you monitoring your intercooler fluid temps as well?
    That's what Brian told me was the result of doing a 3rd gear pull on the dyno - it only started showing KR after a good fifteen seconds at WOT, and said "it was the blower outrunning the intercooler", I only had KR at ~5600 in 3rd (a speed that I honestly rarely reach).


    Quote Originally Posted by 98GrandPrixIraqVet View Post
    I don't mean to start a pissing match here but both the OP's dyno and Dsmuts dyno beg the question why are you not running E85?
    Solid numbers from both cars but this all seems to be in the same category as running your car down the strip on ****ty street tires....... Why not use every advantage available for example drag radials and E85!???
    I can't speak for Dan or what he's doing but I'm probably going E85 this winter/spring, basically as soon as I can scrounge up another $600 for 80# injectors, fuel pump, and the inevitable retune. Ported heads and roller rockers are also coming in 2015. Don't worry, I'll be stretching chains before long.

    ***

    To clarify what I'm getting at in my original post, because I was really attempting to chase two squirrels at once:

    1) The IAT's positioning is awful for a supercharged application. It's impossible to extrapolate exactly what the "true" IAT is after the blower, apart from "definitely a hell of a lot higher than before." That means from a tuning standpoint you're basically shooting in the dark and hoping you dial in the tune correctly. Moreover, it's impossible to accurately create an "adaptive" file that corrects for higher or lower IAT's - resulting in either (a) a chunked piston, or (b) a conservative tune that doesn't get the maximum number of ponies. The presence of an intercooler further complicates the IAT issue - we don't know how much exactly the air is being cooled, and moreover, a tune can't account for when the intercooler heat soaks and IAT's at the engine rise dramatically (even if they aren't per the IAT located near the air filter).

    2) Irrespective of this terrible positioning, a CAI will lower IAT's, even post-blower, even if we don't know by how much. That should, in theory, permit more timing to be thrown at it, and thus add more power. I called out the "Dyno Science" thread because the car had the exact same tune for all pulls. He didn't retune for the CAI, however insigificant it may have been.
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  10. #10 Re: Why Cold Air Intakes Matter 
    GXP Level Member coolone's Avatar
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    Did you have a fan blowing (simulated) air flow towards the CAI? Or was the intake just taking air from under the hood? Hoods up? You mention similar builds, but no indication of the exhaust set ups? Also, were the cars driven the same distance too the dyno or rested the same prior to their respective runs?

    Just curious... I'm old school train of though and agree as always has been the case, colder air = more HP. But the 3.0 & 2.8 pulleys rotating well past spec generating ridiculous heat (I know my S/C is scalding for a long time when I shut my engine off, lol) will offset any argument to the contrary. KR can be addressed, but in the pursuit of higher HP, it really doesn't matter because we all go as high as we can until things break, then back off a bit!
    Lol : )

    1) The IAT's positioning is awful for a supercharged application. It's impossible to extrapolate exactly what the "true" IAT is after the blower, apart from "definitely a hell of a lot higher than before." That means from a tuning standpoint you're basically shooting in the dark and hoping you dial in the tune correctly. Moreover, it's impossible to accurately create an "adaptive" file that corrects for higher or lower IAT's - resulting in either (a) a chunked piston, or (b) a conservative tune that doesn't get the maximum number of ponies. The presence of an intercooler further complicates the IAT issue - we don't know how much exactly the air is being cooled, and moreover, a tune can't account for when the intercooler heat soaks and IAT's at the engine rise dramatically (even if they aren't per the IAT located near the air filter).
    Well, we don't necessarily need to know the intake temp post blower, as if you in car tune, you will address knock no matter what as it is a product of not just intake temp but more, such as fueling, octane, etc.

    Great read and post, I'm not replying to debate your results as they're interesting, but is a well trodden path. Just putting my thoughts out there...
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  11. #11 Re: Why Cold Air Intakes Matter 
    Moderator dsmuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 98GrandPrixIraqVet View Post
    I don't mean to start a pissing match here but both the OP's dyno and Dsmuts dyno beg the question why are you not running E85?

    Some will throw me to the wolves saying im bias because I bought gregs cars or whatever blah blah. I don't see the benefits of the added mods intercooler ported heads rockers.

    Solid numbers from both cars but this all seems to be in the same category as running your car down the strip on ****ty street tires....... Why not use every advantage available for example drag radials and E85!???
    I don't feel like driving 30 miles to get gas is why I'm not e85. I'm setup for it but I'm not switching until I get a closer station
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  12. #12 Re: Why Cold Air Intakes Matter 
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    Yes.. it would be nice to know what temps you are running pre vs post




    Later on, I relocated to the end of the intake by #1 cylinder.
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  13. #13 Re: Why Cold Air Intakes Matter 
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    Quote Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
    Irrespective of this terrible positioning, a CAI will lower IAT's, even post-blower, even if we don't know by how much. That should, in theory, permit more timing to be thrown at it, and thus add more power. I called out the "Dyno Science" thread because the car had the exact same tune for all pulls. He didn't retune for the CAI, however insigificant it may have been.
    See I'm still not convinced that colder air does anything tune or not. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but you first have to think of the heat from the blower itself is going to hundred some degrees possibly from being bolted to the motor which already isn't helping keep that "cooler air" stay cool. Then factor in once you start spinning the m90 its not very efficient (as I've read) as you would expect with compressing air. So in theory whatever cold air you had is now hotter and it shouldn't make a difference. So if you had pre blower temps of like 60* and post blower temps of say 130* (these are just random numbers) i can't see that 60* air staying cooler than say maybe 90* air as its just going to heat it up roughly the same temp because the blower would be spinning at however fast it spins depending on pulley size. Again this is all theory here. Sure ita possible it may lower temps a little but not enough to be benifical to say let you add timing or reduce knock.

    This is why intercoolers exist i would think, or if you used a more efficient blowe like when snowflake did that TVS swap and gained what like 50whp or something without changing anything about the car.

    Shouldn't any significantly cooler air no matter tuned for it or not show an increase in power on a dyno?

    Would be nice to actually see someone test this theory.

    Im not doubting anything about IAT placement about what you said above but just what I've quoted above.

    Again this is what I'm thinking, if I'm wrong i want someone to correct me for learning purposes.






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  14. #14 Re: Why Cold Air Intakes Matter 
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    If you put your IAT in the LIM, you'd see the point I'd be making with intake style being moot.

    Intercooled; sure...the cooling effect there is there. Everything coming out post blower temps is basically magma. So that 50~* ambient difference isn't going to do a damn thing once that heat soaked M90 does work.

    I give you an E for effort, but these are the wrong cars to care about intake placement. To squeeze every little ounce of power out of it...maybe?

    But I'm lazy...and can make an intake in five minutes...verses that closed box, Wizaired business that's way too involved for me just for the same gains (or within a couple horsepower) of an open cone, that's also much cheaper.

    So; I'll enjoy my louder, whine-ier intake...that's cheaper and basically does the same thing. Until you move the crossover under the car, no intake is better than the other. Address the issue, don't bandaid it. No one cares enough to do that; so live with it. Quit beating a dead horse.

    That's how I feel about it.
    Last edited by blueguy; 11-03-2014 at 12:49 PM.
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  15. #15 Re: Why Cold Air Intakes Matter 
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    I was talking to a TBSS guy. With SC kits etc, they'd put their IAT right into the intake and the pcm had the ability to change timing etc much better than ours. In our platform.. it's ... not worth it
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  16. #16 Re: Why Cold Air Intakes Matter 
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    And now the fallacy behind the “Dyno Science” thread is explained – of course the car will make roughly the same power with an open cone versus a Thrasher box or other CAI setup – because the tune remained the same during all pulls. Using a CAI, the owner of the car failed to re-tune his car and add more timing to take advantage of the lower IAT… of course he’s not going to make any more power.
    Maybe you know more about the experiment than I, but are we assuming that all of his pulls were KR-free?

    If he was getting KR, and the same amount during the various pulls, then that might indicate that the intake type did not make any difference.

    As far putting an IAT post-blower, I was actually just discussing doing this last week (in my case, curious about the possible gain of a phenolic spacer). I'm very curious to see some hard data.
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  17. #17 Re: Why Cold Air Intakes Matter 
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    They used to make 1"~ spacers, but they never took off. ZZP made them for awhile, so you might find one floating around used.

    I thought they'd be a great asset for someone wanting methanol injection, or, having to avoid tapping the LIM for an IAT.
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  18. #18 Re: Why Cold Air Intakes Matter 
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    I have about $60 into my cold air intake.

    I have a phenolic intercooler that is cheaper than ZZP's aluminum one.

    My intake air temperature are 20 above ambient. My heat soak temperature is way lower then most. What does it all mean????? I believe I will be faster run after run at the drag strip.

    You should see my IAT
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  19. #19 Re: Why Cold Air Intakes Matter 
    The Boss Iceman6669's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
    He and I have similar builds as of November 2014 (S1x, Gen V, FSIC, headers, catbacks, 3.29 gears) but he also has additional mods (1.8 roller rockers, stage 3 heads, and a 2.8 pulley vs my 3.0 pulley). But it was my car that put out 8 more wheel horsepower on the same dyno…

    Are you running the blower S1x or the NA S1x?
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  20. #20 Re: Why Cold Air Intakes Matter 
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    Quote Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
    It is axiomatic of any tune that the computer would advance or retard ignition timing via a post-main table modifier of some sort to compensate, as a high IAT would be more prone to predetonation inside the cylinder than a lower IAT.


    Dan (dsmuts) had IAT’s somewhere around 110* using an open cone.


    Even on a stock tune, unless your IATs hit 122* it wont pull any timing.
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