Thread: 7 frictions for 2nd

Trannyman have you messed around with adding a 7th friction to 2nd by eliminating the bottom tapered apply plate in 2nd clutch housing and using a stock steel in its place. I know you've said before to just sub in two of the thicker alto steels .090 instead of .068 for 2nd. Which means that helps to tighten the pack up by .044.

Alto has a performance 7 friction set offered for 2nd pack. Which is probably what I'm going to run but instead use raybestos performance frictions. I measure around .030 of clearance in that clutch pack which for 2nd should probably be ok based off what alto's directions said. From what I've read, that clutch pack doesn't generally follow the rule of .008-.012 of clearance for every friction.

See page 51-53

http://www.altousa.com/pdf/instructions.pdf


I'm going to enlarge the 2nd feed to probably .080-.085 and 3rd feed .090-.095 depending on the size of my bits.

I know what holes to drill but got a question on the spacer plate holes. Whats the actual job/purpose of these holes in the spacer plate: 2ND, 2ND EXHAUST, 2ND CLUTCH.

Is the exhaust purpose basically to vent the oil/pressure when the pack is not in use and the feed is to fill the cavity to apply the piston against the clutch plate. So why is their 3 cavities for 2nd as well as 3rd (this one also has a 3rd clutch/Lo1st).

If your not sure what I mean, heres my other thread with a pic of the spacer plate in the ATSG manual with the function of each hole

http://www.grandprixforums.net/f21/t...put-15695.html

have not found a reason to add a 7th plate, this includes cars that are putting down 450+whp. There is more than enough to work with using the stock 6 clutch setup. I have torn apart a few builds that other guys have modified to add a 7th plate and they were all badly coned and burnt up and these were cars running 12s and 13s. I contacted Alto back in 2001 about a 7 clutch setup for 2nd in the 4T65E and they told me there wasnt really a concern or demand for it and 3rd was what seemed to be the weak point. The link that you supplied shows a PowerPack for 2nd for a 440T4/4T60E which is a completely different clutch setup. I have used several of those setups in 440T4/4T60E High Perf rebuilds and they work great, but again not needed in the 4T65E. If you had a GM Hydramatic technicians guide you would be able to see the hydraulic schematics for each gear and where the fluid goes and there are also descriptions of why the fluid channels where it does. That is the easiest and best way to understand the functions of the holes, though they dont go into detail on the WHYS of the hole size but it does show where the restrictions-holes in the spacer plate are. A good understanding of how it works and why really helps out here and without writing a book on this lol there isnt a short easy answer other than the hole sizes restrict fluid flow not only for shift feel and timing but also for release. On a production vehicle you dont want full-on volume and pressure reaching the clutch packs or there will not be smooth shift feel so restrictions are put in place to tame things down. What power levels are you at and how fast do you plan to run at the track? I use a direct relation between that and the hole sizes I use, it is not a one-size-fits-all equation

Originally Posted by Trannyman95

have not found a reason to add a 7th plate, this includes cars that are putting down 450+whp. There is more than enough to work with using the stock 6 clutch setup. I have torn apart a few builds that other guys have modified to add a 7th plate and they were all badly coned and burnt up and these were cars running 12s and 13s. I contacted Alto back in 2001 about a 7 clutch setup for 2nd in the 4T65E and they told me there wasnt really a concern or demand for it and 3rd was what seemed to be the weak point. The link that you supplied shows a PowerPack for 2nd for a 440T4/4T60E which is a completely different clutch setup. I have used several of those setups in 440T4/4T60E High Perf rebuilds and they work great, but again not needed in the 4T65E. If you had a GM Hydramatic technicians guide you would be able to see the hydraulic schematics for each gear and where the fluid goes and there are also descriptions of why the fluid channels where it does. That is the easiest and best way to understand the functions of the holes, though they dont go into detail on the WHYS of the hole size but it does show where the restrictions-holes in the spacer plate are. A good understanding of how it works and why really helps out here and without writing a book on this lol there isnt a short easy answer other than the hole sizes restrict fluid flow not only for shift feel and timing but also for release. On a production vehicle you dont want full-on volume and pressure reaching the clutch packs or there will not be smooth shift feel so restrictions are put in place to tame things down. What power levels are you at and how fast do you plan to run at the track? I use a direct relation between that and the hole sizes I use, it is not a one-size-fits-all equation

Well I finish putting the trans all back together, and is going to be installed tomorrow.

I used 5 friction for input and ran the thinner steels for that pack. I ended up getting rid of the stock apply plate for 2nd which saved me .080 of space. I substituted a standard 2nd steel for the apply plate and put that ontop of the wave plate. I figured that the .080 I saved off using a steel for the apply plate coupled with the .044 I saved from not using the 2 thicker alto steel at .090 netted me .124. So that I figured would allow me to run another steel and friction which comes out to roughly .128. So the 2nd clutch pack is .004 tighter than what ran last time.

I reamed my 2nd clutch feed to .082 and 3rd clutch feed to .093. I also added a smaller spacer on top of the 1-2 accumulator since my prior transgo kit didn't have one on top for the 1-2 accumulator.

Hopefully everything works out alright.

Also looking forward to seeing how your 3.29 gears feel compared to my old 2.93. My goal is to run high 12's low 13's without slicks or DR's.

You really should take it back apart and put the stock apply plate back in 2nd, a thin steel is not going to live too long without warping which is why there is such a thick plate to start with and I see those warp as it is if there is excessive slippage. If you go back to 6 plates, use one extra standard thickness steel for a total of 6 that will give you a very tight clearance if it allows. Then open up the feed for 2nd more (again very dependant on what your car runs and how much power you are making) and it will be plenty. I dont add an extra spacer on top of the 2nd accumulator and use the spacers just as they come out of the package and with a larger feed I have got rubber in 2nd gear with slicks at the track before on a near stock tune. Were you having 2nd clutch problems before? Tune has a lot of effect on how it will work but I will definately say that you should be opening the 2nd feed up more than .080-.085. The minimum I use on performance builds, and this is for 13 second cars, is .093.

Originally Posted by Trannyman95

You really should take it back apart and put the stock apply plate back in 2nd, a thin steel is not going to live too long without warping which is why there is such a thick plate to start with and I see those warp as it is if there is excessive slippage. If you go back to 6 plates, use one extra standard thickness steel for a total of 6 that will give you a very tight clearance if it allows. Then open up the feed for 2nd more (again very dependant on what your car runs and how much power you are making) and it will be plenty. I dont add an extra spacer on top of the 2nd accumulator and use the spacers just as they come out of the package and with a larger feed I have got rubber in 2nd gear with slicks at the track before on a near stock tune. Were you having 2nd clutch problems before? Tune has a lot of effect on how it will work but I will definately say that you should be opening the 2nd feed up more than .080-.085. The minimum I use on performance builds, and this is for 13 second cars, is .093.

I'd be foolish to not heed your advice, so I broke open the trans again. I ended up running the 2nd clutch setup that I had in my trans for the last year. I ran the normal friction count and subbed 2 of the normal steels for 2 of the thicker Alto steel in the center of the pack. I left the spacer plate the same and didn't enlarge the 2nd feed any more than .082. I figure if I don't like it, I'll just take it back out next spring and change it. I'd rather go a bit undersize than over for me right now. I'm going to leave my accumulator setup the way I had it. The accumulator spacer I had was left over from my older wbodystore shift kit. I added a trans drain plug so in the event I don't like it. It would be super easy to swap it out.

I took the car out for a 10 mile test drive, and basically babied it making sure everything was shifting ok. After that I opened it up and boy does it pull muc harder now with the 3.29's. I'm going to slap my new PRJ Intercooler on with the 3.0 pulley hopefully this fall, but it may have to wait for spring as time is the problem with school and work. I was surprised I can spin my tires from a 36 mph downshift (2 people were in the back too), so I can only imagine what it will be like with the 3.0 pulley.

I took my powertuner and used a DHP 1.5 and modified with a stock 98gt trans settings. I need to modify it to my likings for the 3-1 downshift.