Looking for EFFICIENCY upgrades

[RRRocketMan]

My transmission has developed a leak and now I have to drop it and rebuild it so while I've got it open I want to do a couple of things:

Upgrade key components such as clutches and bands (as high friction and few in number as possible to increase efficiency)
Reduce tranny losses by some means

For the second goal, I don't know enough about transmissions to know what changes would reduce losses, except maybe the fluid because of viscous drag effects but basically I want to know if anybody is aware of parts that are known to reduce losses in the transmission. Also, I want to re-use as many parts as possible that are not that important (like the reverse band for example or some of the solenoids that work fine). Any suggestions as to what parts I absolutely should change and which ones I can leave in, to reduce cost? I have a tuner so I can max out line pressure and reduce shift time. Maybe I just need springs or something to help that and better friction?

My goals in descending order according to importance are:

Increase tranny efficiency
Decrease shift time and make shifts more aggressive under load
Decrease cost of job by re-using stuff that does not help with WOT performance in gears 1 and 2.

[SgtMarshal]

cheap fast reliable, pick 2. nobody builds a transmission to get more efficiency out of it. to me it sounds like you just want a stock rebuild with a shift kit. another thing you could consider is an aftermarket torque converter. they are supposed to be lighter than oem, so should be more efficient.

[RRRocketMan]

I agree that my request is somewhat obscure but I've read that the pump can account for 40% of tranny losses, the clutches another 20 and I'm sure the fluid viscosity plays a huge factor in the hydrodynamics. Maybe there is a low-viscosity tranny fluid that comes recommended or a high flow filter? Are all pumps the same or is there a more efficient one?

A shift kit would probably be a good idea but I don't believe that comes with frictions. Any recommended 4-plate frictions that have good grip for gears 1 and 2? Bands as well? Also, because I'm no transmission expert, aside from bands and clutches, are there any other components that really need to be upgraded along with these so that I don't create a new bottleneck for slippage? Remember my car is old and is full of worn components. I just want to change everything in series with each other that contributes to gear engagement.

You also mentioned torque converters. I don't need a special stall converter or one that holds 500 lbs of torque... just one that is well designed in the sense that it doesn't lose most of its power to heat. More torque transfer perhaps from better vane design or something.

When I look on a transmission parts page, the first thing I notice is how many components there are, many of which appear at first glance to be very important to change but I suspect they aren't ALL necessary if you just want to enhance your 1/2 forward gear shift quality. It would really be helpful if I knew what subset of all those parts I really need.

[Scottydoggs]

clearly you dont know much about trannys, read a manual on rebuilding them. its not a easy job if you never been inside one. you'll need special tools too, they are not cheap or free either.

when you buy rebuild kits it comes with all new clutches and what not, aka you use it all, why just change 3 rd gear clutches? thats just f ing dumb.

your best bet is to just buy a tranny form tep. they do all sorts of upgrades. and have different level builds for sale.

[BrandonHall10]

you'll need special tools too, they are not cheap or free either.

Truth.

[16MustangVet]

tep trans with valve body upgrade and shift kit and 7/8s chain...... new stock stall tq convertor.

[SgtMarshal]

here is an example of how an aftermarket torque converter is better: you don't have to get a 3000 stall, but the weight savings alone will make a difference.

http://www.grandprixforums.net/threa...-Bar-Aeroforce

[RRRocketMan]

clearly you dont know much about trannys...

Yeah... thanks for repeating me.

...I don't know enough about transmissions...
...Also, because I'm no transmission expert...

It follows that I am having this work done by a mechanic.

And of course these choice words...

...3 rd gear clutches? ...

...thats just f ing dumb...

...WOT performance in gears 1 and 2...
...good grip for gears 1 and 2...
...enhance your 1/2 forward gear shift quality...

so forgive me if I find it ironic when you say

...read a manual...

right after you failed to read my posts.

[RRRocketMan]

Thanks all who have answered so far. Based on this, I think I will focus my attention on the following bill of materials:

Aftermarket TC
TEP valve body
Shift kit
Borg Warner forward band, 1st/2nd clutch pack
Low viscosity ATF (any favorites?)
Accumulators?

[J57ltr]

Add a tuner so you can change pressures and shift times.

[Scottydoggs]

you'll get lots of help like that. like i said, start reading stuff. your trans shop will just rape you cause you think you know something. they see you coming and yes you to death so you shut up.


if your running stock engine still just get it rebuilt. you dont need any thing extra installed. like pricey hard parts and such.

walk in and repeat this to a shop,,,,,have a tape rolling so we can hear the guy laughing.

"My goals in descending order according to importance are:

Increase tranny efficiency
Decrease shift time and make shifts more aggressive under load
Decrease cost of job by re-using stuff that does not help with WOT performance in gears 1 and 2."

shop charges what they charge, you want to pay full price for 1/2 a trans job be my guest. i look for the shop that changes all wear parts. not 1/2 of them cause of cost,,,you paid for the rebuild kit, use it.

mind you thats how most shops work, you have a slipping first gear, they replace just first gear clutches. and yes they charge for a full rebuild cause they love to rape you and every one else they can.

[RRRocketMan]

A little solidarity goes a long way when you enter a thread. Just sayin.

The labour is what it is. If I provide the parts myself I can save on the total cost so why would I

1) have them order the parts for me and
2) order ALL the parts when some of the used ones are just fine for my needs?

If I can get the job done for 2k instead of 2500 that's significant enough to warrant doing my homework up front and giving the mechanic the parts up front.

Half the gears in the transmission are going to be just fine because they never get abused so I don't see why I should pay for a full rebuild kit. The shift solenoids all work so why replace those? You see why I'm trying to come up with a bill of materials for this job? I can buy a kit and ask the mechanic to just use all of it sure, but he'll be throwing perfectly good parts in the trash and I'll never notice that they were replaced. Considering the fact that the only reason I'm doing a rebuild is because of an oil leak, I'm allowed to nickel and dime the stuff I don't need because I wouldn't have upgraded the tranny otherwise. I'm just opportunistic enough to upgrade certain key components that I know are a good ROI.


J57ltr: Already have a tuner. Performing diagnostics and changing settings won't be a problem fortunately.

As for the superfluous "efficiency" thing, it's not that crazy of an idea even though it does admittedly sound retarded to anyone listening. Efficiency is nothing more than OUT / IN. If you get more OUT for a given IN, it's more efficient but that's also the exact same thing as adding power through any other mod. Want to add a CAI to your car? Gain of +10HP... or you can just make your exhaust tract more EFFICIENT by eliminating the U-bend, thus raising volumetric efficiency and increasing the power you get out of the car for what you put in. It's all equivalent so asking for a more efficient tranny build is tantamount to asking for a power upgrade, since more torque is coupled to the wheels instead of ending up as waste heat.

[SgtMarshal]

you can get a stock rebuilt trans for 1700 with parts and labor from a solid mechanic who deals with the 4T65 extensively. you can also get a rebuild kit for less than 1000 for your local shop to use.

[Scottydoggs]

whats funny is i just went trans shopping for a friends truck, got 3 est's, one for 3 grand, and the guy talked like they just fix what they find bad, would not commit to replacing all wear parts,.

2nd guy 2500, but would call if it needed stuff like a new pump, and add 300 to the bill or more.

3 rd guy, 2300 all wear parts replaced, shift kit, new pump, vb work, new tc, new electronics, upgraded hard parts, and if the case is bad, this price stands too. unlike the rest of them who wanted more for a another case if it was needed. guess whos doing the trans job as we speak.

shop # 3.

this shop has like 15 lifts and was the cleanest trans shops ive ever seen in my life. they also specialize in truck tranny jobs. im glad we shopped around.

[Scottydoggs]

you can get a stock rebuilt trans for 1700 with parts and labor from a solid mechanic who deals with the 4T65 extensively. you can also get a rebuild kit for less than 1000 for your local shop to use.

TEP back to basix is 1600 aint it? no core charge either.

[BrandonHall10]

I think once you price out the cost/effort to remove, disassemble, inspect/clean, reassemble, and reinstall a trans, you won't be able to justify the savings of reusing any perishable items. Talking solenoids, steels, clutches, and obviously the seals and gaskets. Especially if you are paying someone else to do the work. Big picture.

As far as increasing efficiency of the trans... Not gonna happen. At least no tangible amount. It is what it is. You may, however, be able to increase the overall efficiency of the vehicle. If you do a very specific type of driving, like highway, you could opt for a lower FDR. I'm not even sure how much that would benefit you. Again... Big picture.

You haven't told us what motor/trans or even the make of the car.

[RRRocketMan]

When it comes to automotive work, I'm continually amazed at how much difference there is in margin from one shop to the next.


BTW what's the thinnest ATF you can run in a 4T65E?

Sgt Marshal: Reagarding your earlier post about torque converters, I was just looking around and am having trouble finding an exact model. I like the 245 housing design you linked to but would prefer a regular converter as opposed to a stall converter at 3000 or w/e. Are there any normal stall converters you're aware of with the 245 housing and which are lighter than stock? Reducing the rotating mass seems to be supported on the net as a means of improving responsiveness.

[Scottydoggs]

http://www.tripleedgeperformance.com..._to_Basix.html this is what you want. swap the tranny yourself.

[J57ltr]

If you are looking for the utmost in efficiency then use a manual transmission, that's about as good as it gets.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. Get a tighter converter as the stock one will flash at 2,400 rpm easily and will slip about 1400 just on a normal take off, and for goodness sakes you are asking about the most efficiency and not replacing all the parts. Replace everything with better parts, bearings, bushings, clutches all that. The truth is you have no idea what you will need to replace until you actually pull it down. You may think the gears are just fine and get in there and they are on their last legs. I was at a friends shop recently and he was rebuilding a transmission and as he pulled one of the clusters out there were chips on the teeth that weren't discovered until actually getting in there.

[Scottydoggs]

higher stall speed is so not needed, that will just waste gas.

only way thats worth having is if your a turbo or a cam set up making large hp and run at a track a lot. other wise its a waste.