Thread: zzp intercooler

so i plan on buying a full size intercooler this spring and i just wanted to know what should i get, Once i get the intercooler i'm gonna drop my pulley to 3.3 but thats it bt anyways Do i need to get a flojet pump ? Also theirs no Option for fuel rails i think anymore, i just want to know what i need for the intercooler to be allset. Also what is the difference between the stag 2 and stage 3 ic, i'm guessingit drops the temp down even more.

I just installed a new ZZP stage2, and for the second time, (had a stage 3 before), I went with the GM pump.

They are not making the Stage 3 any longer...I know some people had problems with the bottom half of the core cracking but mine was installed properly and there was never a problem with it. With the stage 3, the blower would stay cool, compared with the stage 2 that gets heat soaked pretty quick.

Fuel rails - get PRJs

I bought the kit but really only used the ZZP core, GM pump, and a few pieces of the plumbing that I could have gotten from Lowes. I bought a relay, inline fuse, wiring, Gates heater hose, a FMHE from Frozenboost Air to Water Radiator and a cobalt reservior

The heat problem sounds not soo good for the stage 2 ic but since their not gonna make the stage3 anymore, i'll have to stick with a stage 2 but thats ok. So where do i get these fuel rails ? Also how was the install ? Ill get the gm 100,000 silent pump, and i do have to get the machined intake right ?

i think zzp sells fuel rails also.

PRJ rails > ZZP rails but there is a cost for quality.

Yes you will need a machined LIM.

With my mods and a 2.8 pulley, I'm not seeing KR anywhere. This is also a DD. It's just that the Stage 3 with that Ultem lower half worked so well I was amazed the first time I laid my hand on the blower after driving from Indy to St Louis non stop IIRC. Anyway the stage 2 works very well IMO.

As far as installing goes. My car was down for 3 weeks, I believe. However, I only worked a couple hours each night, did gauges at the same time, am real anal about stuff, didn't install like most people do, etc. I believe most will do this in a full day or two.

PRJ rails PRJ Performance Gen3 L67 Aluminum Fuel Rails Kit: 3800 Performance

Intense sells injector spacers, that unlike ZZP's supposed to work with more than just the SSIC INTENSE-Racing.com: <b><i>INTENSE</b></i>™ Fuel Injector Spacer Kit

The only thing(s) I have against the ZZP rails are, the cheap regulator known for failing, the mounting is less than sturdy, and a fitment issue that they finally refunded me for.

Great thanks for all the info! So i have a choice between th fuel rails or injector spacers right ?

Originally Posted by Reptile

If you decide to go that route, don't go broke on ZZP's LIM....I'll do one for you for a LOT cheaper. Just hit me up.

You won't forget to put the PCV channel in for him, will you?

Originally Posted by ryangtp89

Great thanks for all the info! So i have a choice between th fuel rails or injector spacers right ?

with ZZP's kit they send you a couple of pieces of hose and some clamps so you can cut your fuel rail and reuse it, However, I personally would find that less than desirable.

You won't forget to put the PCV channel in for him, will you?

I wouldnt use that if you paid me! Stock the hole in the intake and through the blower housing is at least 4 times larger in area, for a Stock engine. How is 6K rpm worth of backpressure going to work its way out of a 1/8" hole with sharp 90 deg bends? But it keeps you from using a breather, no big deal to me. Its easier and more efficient to plumb in a fitting in the oil fill tube and use an adequate sized line to hook up to the throttle body if you dont want to run a breather and that way there is plenty of area for the crankcase pressure to travel through.
The Stage 2 kits do work very well, heat soak isnt a big deal unless you are at the track planning to make 20 passes in a few hours time. The outside temp really isnt a big deal, its the heat generated inside that comes out of the blower and no matter how you slice it with an intercooler you are taking some of that heat out of the incoming engine air. How many guys honestly start their car up and drive it for 5 or 10 minutes to race someone on the street and shut it down to cool off? Zooomer told me long ago that on a street car there would be minimal if any gain with the S3 core and was a better track outing piece so it wouldnt heat soak so much waiting between runs and recommended using the S2 core. The GM pump seems to work really well also but I have mixed feelings on it. It is definately quite but I am up in the air if it moves enough volume after making a long run as the past few cars I have tuned seem to have KR liking to creep up late in a run where cars with the Flowjet pump dont seem to run into this, but the Flowjet pump is pretty loud and definately has a lot more drain on the battery and you can get left with a dead car if you keep the key one with engine off for extended times. For fuel rails PRJ is definately the way to go unless you dont want to swing it, in that case either modify your stockers or buy the modified stock rails from W-body store or ZZP. I have cut up plenty of stock lines and used what ZZP supplies to extend them with no problems at all but they arent the prettiest! The ZZP rails have gone through numorous renovations over the years and I have never been really happy about them and a lot of people have leak issues or pressure regulator problems with them but the newer ones they have are supposed to address the earlier issues and the last set I installed seemed ok.

Worked fine on my stage 3 and I have no squealing now, like people get with partially blocked PCV's. With the stage 2 and a smaller pulley than I've ever ran, same results and no pressure release when removing the oil cap. Seems ok to me. Brian could cut a larger (wider) channel, unless that would compromise the integrity of the mating surface.

[shameless plug]I have a nice brand new Intense chrome shiney valve cover breather, that I won't be using. [/shamless plug]

I have a nice shiney valve cover breather also that i got awhile back so i wont be needing that ? I am a little lost when it comes to the intake partand you guys start talking about driling and what not, i understand the fuel rails, If pjr or watever their called is too expensive i will go with zzp fuels rails, But like what tranny man mentioned They revised the fuel rails soo hopfully there wont be no leakage problems.

No squealing at idle doesnt mean it moves the volume of air it should, that is only 800 rpm and has a reverse function at idle as it does at WOT. When engine vacuum reaches 0 and from there on into boost the air gets drawn through the entire passage and is pulled in with the incoming air through the throttle body. It seems to work fine because nobody knows there is a problem IF there is a problem. Who honestly puts a pressure gauge on the oil cap and goes for a drive? Blowby is something every engine has, these engines use narrow low tension oil control rings. Spinning a higher rpm and adding more and more boost creates more blowby. Circle track engines run two larger breathers, one on each valve cover to allow the crankcase vapor and pressure somewhere to go or it will cost HP and put stress on oil seals because it wants to go somewhere. This is one reason serious guys use a vacuum pump to maintain vacuum in the crankcase to prevent this from happening. Trying to squeeze crankcase pressure at 6300 rpm with 10+ psi of boost in the intake through a puny 1/8" square hole with sharp turns is not the best way to let the pcv system work. Look at the size of the hole in the intake that meets up with the blower housing in stock form. It is an easy solution to not run a breather and is a clean setup but is not large enough to do the job it needs to do. When the hole is blocked off or gasket collapses over time to fill the hole then you have a lot of vacuum on the crankcase and it is going to drink a bit of oil and give you your squealing noise. Almost all factory PCV systems use no less than 3/8" or normally 1/2" diameter pcv lines in this end of the system. Revving the engine much higher than stock and adding more boost then necking down the pcv passage that must freely breathe isnt the answer, but again is a convenience and something nobody worries about.

We need more PCV info apparently. If you do the line from the oil cap to the tb, isn't that just one half of the system? I've been looking at some of these elaborate bypass systems not just for a 3800 but other vehicles and it gets confusing. If I'm looking at these correctly there is the part of the system that drawns in air (I'm assuming this is the TB to oil cap part you mention), but isn't there another half where the gases are vented?

Granted I'm not too worried since no one yet has posted about any issues, other than the completely blocked PCV's. However I'm interested, if there is a real benefit and doesn't ugly up what already has become cluttered.

So when i get my intercooler, and get the option of getting my intake machined i should be all set ?

Originally Posted by ryangtp89

So when i get my intercooler, and get the option of getting my intake machined i should be all set ?

SHOULD be. Dave says no and he may be right. There are builders on opposite sides of this PCV thing and whether the "functional" PCV passage is fine. So far, I've not read or heard of anyone having problems with the ZZP IC/machined LIM as long as they are installed correctly. Doesn't mean Dave isn't right and we are killing our engines, and no one has figured it out yet.

added a link which I thought was pretty good. ZZ Performance

ZZP IC's made after 5/06 have the "functioning" or "not-so-functioning" PCV, depending on your POV...not power of veto...

no one has figured it out yet

Since I went to school for engine rebuilding and automotive specializing in general, especially the performance end of things, I am well aware of how the system needs to function. Maybe I should grab one of my engine books to bring along to Branson since pictures speak louder than words and it may not seem clear. Here is how it works...... When the engine has vacuum in the intake manifold ie idle, light, part throttle conditions airflow is drawn through the pcv vent hold in the throttle body which is the one that passes through the intercooler and into your modified/passage machined lower intake manifold to work with stock pcv type operation. This allows fresh air to be drawn through the crankcase and also prevents you from putting a larger vacuum on the crankcase which will make the noise you mentioned and also try to suck excessive of oil vapor into the engine. ALL engines have blowby to some extent and must have fresh air pass through the crankcase to allow it to vent off. The other end of the system is your PCV valve that is in the blower housing. This is a calibrated bleed so to speak that allows engine vacuum to pull the crankcase pressure/vapor through the pcv valve so it wont build up. This is vented into the top of the inlet of the blower housing and this is why you see wet rotors and lower intake as it is thousands of miles of pcv operation which will have a very fine oil mist to it often. The PCV valve has a checkvalve and spring inside it so it will only flow one way, or with vacuum on it. Now once you go to 0 vacuum or into boost the PCV valve no long is working the same and the crankcase vapors are vented in reverse through the passage that goes back into the throttle body. These gases and vapors are carried through the throttle body and all the way through the inlet of the blower. Along with any pressure potentially built up in the crankcase helping push these vapors back out the incoming air across the hole in the throttle body for the pcv passage helps draw them out. Look at it this way.... You got to McDonalds for a pop and get a good sized straw with it. Try blowing through this and sucking through this.... you get the idea. NOW do this with a coffee straw! I think you know where I am going with this, you have a coffee straw to breathe through with your modified-added pcv passage intake. Back to what I mentioned earlier once you go above stock such as spinning much higher rpms and adding more boost you need more ventilation because the crankcase pressure is going to become higher than on a stock car that's system was designed to perform adequately with. Race engines dont car about the whole spectrum and only run breathers on the valve covers. Your question about only the front half of ventilation... The crankcase is common to both cylinder heads and sides of the engine so it really doesnt matter though you often find the inside of the rear valve cover a bit dirtier than the front one. The PCV system was really used standard back in around 1965 from an emissions standpoint as it used to just get vented out of the engine through vent tubes and some cars with a draft tube that would run under the car, then to the PCV system which will send these vapors back through the engine to reburn and let off less emissions and not have raw oil dripping on the ground. I hope this helps clear up your thoughts on how it works.

Originally Posted by Trannyman95

Since I went to school for engine rebuilding and automotive specializing in general, especially the performance end of things, I am well aware of how the system needs to function. Maybe I should grab one of my engine books to bring along to Branson since pictures speak louder than words and it may not seem clear. Here is how it works...... When the engine has vacuum in the intake manifold ie idle, light, part throttle conditions airflow is drawn through the pcv vent hold in the throttle body which is the one that passes through the intercooler and into your modified/passage machined lower intake manifold to work with stock pcv type operation. This allows fresh air to be drawn through the crankcase and also prevents you from putting a larger vacuum on the crankcase which will make the noise you mentioned and also try to suck excessive of oil vapor into the engine. ALL engines have blowby to some extent and must have fresh air pass through the crankcase to allow it to vent off. The other end of the system is your PCV valve that is in the blower housing. This is a calibrated bleed so to speak that allows engine vacuum to pull the crankcase pressure/vapor through the pcv valve so it wont build up. This is vented into the top of the inlet of the blower housing and this is why you see wet rotors and lower intake as it is thousands of miles of pcv operation which will have a very fine oil mist to it often. The PCV valve has a checkvalve and spring inside it so it will only flow one way, or with vacuum on it. Now once you go to 0 vacuum or into boost the PCV valve no long is working the same and the crankcase vapors are vented in reverse through the passage that goes back into the throttle body. These gases and vapors are carried through the throttle body and all the way through the inlet of the blower. Along with any pressure potentially built up in the crankcase helping push these vapors back out the incoming air across the hole in the throttle body for the pcv passage helps draw them out. Look at it this way.... You got to McDonalds for a pop and get a good sized straw with it. Try blowing through this and sucking through this.... you get the idea. NOW do this with a coffee straw! I think you know where I am going with this, you have a coffee straw to breathe through with your modified-added pcv passage intake. Back to what I mentioned earlier once you go above stock such as spinning much higher rpms and adding more boost you need more ventilation because the crankcase pressure is going to become higher than on a stock car that's system was designed to perform adequately with. Race engines dont car about the whole spectrum and only run breathers on the valve covers. Your question about only the front half of ventilation... The crankcase is common to both cylinder heads and sides of the engine so it really doesnt matter though you often find the inside of the rear valve cover a bit dirtier than the front one. The PCV system was really used standard back in around 1965 from an emissions standpoint as it used to just get vented out of the engine through vent tubes and some cars with a draft tube that would run under the car, then to the PCV system which will send these vapors back through the engine to reburn and let off less emissions and not have raw oil dripping on the ground. I hope this helps clear up your thoughts on how it works.

Now that's what I'm talking about! Finally a blower PCV specific write-up. This is one I will want to bookmark.

When I said half of the system I didn't mean the engine itself as in the 1-3-5 front half, but the half of only drawing in air and not venting. If you are saying this,without any valve acts as both then I can see where a TB would need constant maintenance without an oil catch can.

Now the big question as related to the straw analogy. drum roll please. I know that the passage in the throttle body is small. The PCV when open apears not to be able to pass the volume of air that the top fitting could, if there was no valve in the middle or the small opening on the bottom (I can still taste the gas..I'm more of a hands on learner LOL). Nevermind the passages on the blower, because we don't know if the sizing in there was related to volume required, or a matter of casting needs, or a combo of both....

finally back to the straws. How do we know that the coffee straw isn't enough but soda straw was used? I'm only asking because while the answer may seem obvious, I don't know that it is...yet especially with the lack of problematic PCV history.

I love this schstuff...it's how I learn. You know I take nothing handed out, without questioning why. It's not personal, it's just my SOP.

I know Lee, thats I am try to break things down and make it easier to follow And you know I dont have an issue with that! An apples to apples comparison is the only way to see what is going on. You are correct that the hole in the throttle body isnt that large, but it is much larger than the bottleneck downstream that was added in that didnt exist in stock form. Like anything else that have to move from A to B and kink, bend, tight corner, etc will restrict flow, especially with all of the above PLUS a greatly reduced size is at hand. The smalled point of the passage is the hole in the throttle which is the tail end of the path. The modified intake is the largest restriction right at the start of the path where it needs to be the largest in order to move adequately from A to B. The only way to know what you have is to put a pressure gauge right on the fill cap and go make some WOT runs and see what it does. Again this really isnt comparing apples to apples unless you do it as your car sits THEN pull the IC back off and test with factory operation...... But I know you dont want to tear the car back apart to find out lol! Also you will have to run the same boost level and rpm for the A-B comparison otherwise it wont be as accurate.

Originally Posted by Trannyman95

I know Lee, thats I am try to break things down and make it easier to follow And you know I dont have an issue with that! An apples to apples comparison is the only way to see what is going on. You are correct that the hole in the throttle body isnt that large, but it is much larger than the bottleneck downstream that was added in that didnt exist in stock form. Like anything else that have to move from A to B and kink, bend, tight corner, etc will restrict flow, especially with all of the above PLUS a greatly reduced size is at hand. The smalled point of the passage is the hole in the throttle which is the tail end of the path. The modified intake is the largest restriction right at the start of the path where it needs to be the largest in order to move adequately from A to B. The only way to know what you have is to put a pressure gauge right on the fill cap and go make some WOT runs and see what it does. Again this really isnt comparing apples to apples unless you do it as your car sits THEN pull the IC back off and test with factory operation...... But I know you dont want to tear the car back apart to find out lol! Also you will have to run the same boost level and rpm for the A-B comparison otherwise it wont be as accurate.

What you say makes sense, and I get it. I'm just wondering if it is possible that no harm is being done. Without doing what you mentioned, we don't have anything to really go by other than past history and that looks favorable. And you are right, I'm not touching anything.LOL After all it took me a long time to carefully assemble this in the first place.