You and I need to talk about that, Ive had my eye on one of those.Originally Posted by GR8racingfool
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04-11-2008
You and I need to talk about that, Ive had my eye on one of those.
04-11-2008
really? Name one vendor Drag car running stock rails?
or any High HP setup for that matter. There is a need for these
04-12-2008
I need to stock back up on fittings now...the S10 pretty much used all mine up.
04-13-2008
I cannot not name one vendor, cause probably none is running them. They will either have a intercooler set up which requires something to be done about the stock rails, either being hacked up and modified, spacers added for the injectors, or the use of logs, or they have a turbo set up and need the room for the custom intake, or they sell them, and why not run what you sell to promote them.
I'm not saying these are not needed, I'm just saying logs are not needed for 80% of the cars who are buying them. The stock rails are not restrictive as they are, but not saying you shouldn't go out and drop some cash on a set of good looking rails to pretty up your engine bay. Thats where most of these get sold for...looks not performance.
I like your design, how big, and over kill they are, cause I consider the size of the logs as a storage bay or container for fuel waiting to enter the injectors vs. the smaller ones that can only hold what the injector requires.
I was considering a set of these because I am installing my nitrous spacer plate under my blower and these look pretty sweet IMO, but after you jumped my throat I think I will just make some billet injector spacers so I can keep my stock rails. I'm pretty sure for my build that I am anything but stock., yet, still retain the stock fuel rails.
Why does everyone who makes after market rails act like this to potential customers? I just don't get these business practices these days.
SyntheticShield, shoot me a PM or start a new thread on the INTENSE oil filter adapter, I would be happy to help you out.
~F~
04-13-2008
Well put Jason.
04-14-2008
Sorry if it came across as jumping down your throat. Your statement just came across as misinformed. I see what you are saying about alot of cars not needing these and i agree to a point.
I do have a few questions tho.
What is the biggest injector that has ever been put on a stock L67 or L36 rail?
a 60lb? a 75lb? how well did the actual flow rate match the ifr table? How well do they hold fuel pressure steady in the upper RPMs running high boost or a large dry nitrous injection?
it is apparent from the Riv that there may be points in the engines powerband where harmonics in the OE fuel rails can wreak havok on steady fuel trims... going lean at any point in the powerband can be detrimental to the engine, we can all agree on that right?
quite a few of the setups we are being asked about and seeing getting started are wanting 60-150lb injectors, some with E85. cutting corners in some area's is cheap and acceptable...cutting corners and blowing an engine is neither...
There are a few drawbacks of the stock rails on non stock inj flow rates
To name a few:
Rail ID causing fuel to speed up and go past the injectors fast enough for pressure fluctuations to affect cylinder to cylinder fueling (remember the rails are crimped for the brazed in inj bungs).
Plastic lines on the feed and return of the rails that kink, crack and with the increased underhood temps on modded cars, allow the possibilty of small engine fire to turn into an inferno when the line melts (how many cars coulda been saved if the fire didnt melt them and "throw fuel on the fire")
They will not work with IC setups with out cutting/modification or using a small core to be able to use injector spacers that are on the market. (i dont know about you but i dont like the idea of adding to the chance of a fuel leak.)
A horrible pulsation dampener that is at best (99+), adequate for stock IFR/pumps
We have tested a few stock rail designs and even after improvements they did not deliver what we had been hoping for. After road testing the -8s it was clear as day how much they helped overall fueling and its demand on the rest of the system and thats with commonly used 42lb inj and a stock pump (see James' post)
You as well as I know that James has been a champion of openly sharing info on a wide range of 3800 attributes, TB coolant deletes that reduce rear bank cooling, the oiling restriction past the cam bearings, overloaded oil ring on #4 due to OE windage tray design etc.
We'd like to offer solutions for a build of any level.
This is why we are offering 2 sizes of rail, -8 and -10(Fatman).
2 ways to adapt a fuel pressure regulator, stock and aftermarket.
An option to delete the Plastic feed and return lines.
mounting options that allow the use of shorter/taller injector bodies.
The ability to add AN lines at a later time if the person decides to upgrade the entire fuel system.
An option to add a L32 pulsation dampeners to the Fatman rails for reducing the effects of pulsation of fuel trims
Addtional fuel capacity(as you mentioned).
fully Tig welded to eliminate potential leak points
This just begins the improvements that went into the design.
There will be alot of very large 3800 FI builds this year and in the comming years. James is always fond of the saying "stock is good for stock" and that seems to hold true for many things in the 3800 (and other engines/makes) performance market. the stock rotating assembly can likely handle good amounts of power, but not with the stock oiling system putting a stranglhold on oil flow at high rpm's. address the shortcommings and overall system reliability/performance improves
When people are finaly shown that most stock parts on them are not able to push amazing power, we will see even more ideas shared and parts made to address the issues. The SDD rails are just a step in the right direction...
Farns, if you are able to make Billet injector spacers that clear any model IC setup for the series II and III, i would love to see these. Im still suprised no other vendor has bothered to do this. I would rather see this done then chopped rails with clamps and rubber fuel hose, if new rails are not in the customers budget.
but as we all know, those with aftermarket hoods dont like the idea of hoses and clamps being rubbed/cut in their hood from/to clear the OE rail connections...
04-14-2008
Billet spacers, not a problem. Had some spun on a lathe from stainless steel. They have a male to female design using the same size Viton o-ring that sits in a machined groove on the male end that fits up snug into the stock fuel rail, and yes, still retains the injector clip use, and you can add an additional set of injector clips from the injector to the spacer, since it retains the exact same measurements as the female end of the fuel rail. For those that believe that the injector clips help prevent leaks. (yes, I'm rolling my eyes too)
Intense was one company who made billet injector spacers, they were made from aluminum, and for use with their 2" IC's. I believe ZZP also had or still makes injector spacers too, but why don't they sell them? These probably cost $25.00 to $50.00 to make, and they can sell them for a couple of hundred, or have a set of fuel logs in the $400.00 price range that looks better, and has a wider range of models they can fit. Go with what sells ya know and what the customers want.
Not going into details about my cars motor too much.
Big cam, big heads, self built motor thats full of goodies. Have a dry nitrous set up, 65 lb injectors, and believe it or not, still retain the stock fuel pump as well. No drop in pressure, and not running lean now.
I am considering running all AN fittings with stainless braided line from pump to motor, and your rails would be a nice addition to my engine bay no doubt. Some of the nicest ones I have seen out there to date no doubt there.
~F~
04-13-2008
wow......
thats all I have to say.
04-14-2008
Almost looks like you could add a fuel pressure gauge on the blocked off end if you wanted. Real nice set up BTW
04-14-2008
I agree with the chopped rails comment as well. I got a set when I got hosed with my Miller special top swap. I took one look and threw them aside in favor of PRJ rails when I had my IC build up going.
These rails look very well and the welds look right on. Id like to see a full kit put together to really see a difference between these and PRJs.
04-17-2008
Bob- I just got home from work and opened up the box! all I can SAY!!! well I cant say anything.I am speechless!!!!
the polish job on them is imaculate! at first I thought it was chrome! These are just plain huge and I am sure they will fit my build! Everyone who worked on these and did research did an AWESOME!!! AWESOME!!!! job!
I HIGHLY recommend these for any GP, these are just finaminal!!!!!
and no..the pictures dont do them any justice..
04-17-2008
Glad you liked them jacob, get a few pics of them on the car if possible.
now i think im a little more excited to see your project get finished soon.
04-17-2008
Do you have an idea of how soon these would be available for purchase? I am kind of hoping when I put my car back together (in no less than a month I hope) that I could put a set of these on.
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