Thread: ABS in the winter and TC Light

Imprecise number o'clock: Calling engineers and math freaks: I barely remember this, so plz to help meh.
Locking up wheels: So, we're looking at ~580kg from ~13m/s to 0m/s perched atop 4 patches of rubber ~20cm wide each (80cm total) trying to build up enough snow in front to measurably slow the vehicle.

Force = Mass * acceleration... 580kg * 13m/s^2 = 567N ...right? Um, so that's the forward force. I think.
Um, so mu = friction force / Force... Shoot, I think I'm doing this wrong. Someone smart step in and learn us. We have smart people, right? I seem to remember a lot of you cats claiming to be engineer students, anyway.

Simply enough. Snow is Frozen water particles. Compress them and you create a Snow pack. Which has a tighter molecular bond. Which in turn would make the vehicle slide further. Packed snow=Slick.

I also live in buffalo
But I prefer the abs sometimes.
It keeps my car straight when stopping. If I disable the abs, my car likes to turn left or right. In other words, the back end can swing out.

So basically it just makes it easier not to slide out when hauling ass on the roads or thruway. One panic stop or slight brake , and the bam you get yourself into a slide that normally the abs would correct


Same goes for people who only use 2 snow tires. Talk about an instant drift car. The back all seasons act like plastic food trays while the front snow tires are getting all the traction.

And the ****ty part about ice traction is that ice is slippery when it's compressed by the weight of the vehicle and causes water to rise to the surface. That's why it's never good to spin all seasons when your stuck in the snow. Your making an ice pack under the tire. Whereas a snow tire is designed to dig an scoop snow away until it grabs (or until you bottom out)

i just dont want you to give out BAD stopping info, what you are saying is unsafe, unless you are in a parking lot fvcking around or on a closed course of some sort.

im not taking this personally or trying to slam you. i just dont agree. yes maybe you could stop faster like that, but in a real world situation this is so un safe its not funny. locked up wheels leave you with no control, im sure you learned that in racing school. (fact)


i want to see the vids on plowed pavement, not 3 to 6 inches of snow. most of us get snow, (not like buffalo) i know its snows a lot there and plows cant always keep up with all of it. but most of us aren't driving in 6 inches of unplowed snow ever. so like i said before, this is bad info to be given out to the rest of north america.

Originally Posted by scottydoggs

i just dont want you to give out BAD stopping info, what you are saying is unsafe, unless you are in a parking lot fvcking around or on a closed course of some sort.

im not taking this personally or trying to slam you. i just dont agree. yes maybe you could stop faster like that, but in a real world situation this is so un safe its not funny. locked up wheels leave you with no control, im sure you learned that in racing school. (fact)


i want to see the vids on plowed pavement, not 3 to 6 inches of snow. most of us get snow, (not like buffalo) i know its snows a lot there and plows cant always keep up with all of it. but most of us aren't driving in 6 inches of unplowed snow ever. so like i said before, this is bad info to be given out to the rest of north america.

I'm not trying to give out this information in the context you're thinking.. i asked what you all do in the winter on snow.. and it's not always a bad thing like i said before. Racing schools can say all they want, but real world scenario, like snow, they do NOT train you for. They have said however, that on loose gravels and snow, that ABS is not that effective. That' i can pretty much copy down their words next time i am the O'Neil school this year. For snow and rally driving, they say ABS is the worst thing you can have, now why would they say that if it wasn't true? I get your point as well, for the average joe schmoe driver i would agree, but i am hardly that driver, yet, i am not the most professional one either.

And i was doing it on plowed roadways, at about 2 am when no one else was around, that's how i was testing it to begin with in her car. But in her car, your TC goes off as well when you pull the ABS fuse, in the STi, you loose none of that stuff. What's sad to me, is that i can stop better in snow with my summer tires in the snow than she can with winter tires with ABS in the snow, now you tell me how that is possible? I lock them up and slide, and she doesn't yet i stop way faster, and sooner than she does.
I also refuse to believe that even though i have a brembo braking system, and 4pot calipers have anything to do with it's ability to stop in the snow... locking them up is locking them up. Can you explain why that works out of curiousity?

Originally Posted by WRBSTi

i can stop better in snow with my summer tires in the snow than she can with winter tires with ABS in the snow, now you tell me how that is possible? I lock them up and slide, and she doesn't yet i stop way faster, and sooner than she does.

Your vehicle is 200lbs lighter, which doesn't strike me as terribly significant. So I wonder if the actual weight distribution might more severely change stopping distances.

Originally Posted by WRBSTi

IIRC these cars also have a 50/50 braking distribution to them correct?

Oh golly. I'm gonna answer then delete this when someone who knows what they're talking about posts. I think we're something like 70/30.

Originally Posted by WRBSTi

I'm not trying to give out this information in the context you're thinking.. i asked what you all do in the winter on snow.. and it's not always a bad thing like i said before. Racing schools can say all they want, but real world scenario, like snow, they do NOT train you for. They have said however, that on loose gravels and snow, that ABS is not that effective. That' i can pretty much copy down their words next time i am the O'Neil school this year. For snow and rally driving, they say ABS is the worst thing you can have, now why would they say that if it wasn't true? I get your point as well, for the average joe schmoe driver i would agree, but i am hardly that driver, yet, i am not the most professional one either.

And i was doing it on plowed roadways, at about 2 am when no one else was around, that's how i was testing it to begin with in her car. But in her car, your TC goes off as well when you pull the ABS fuse, in the STi, you loose none of that stuff. What's sad to me, is that i can stop better in snow with my summer tires in the snow than she can with winter tires with ABS in the snow, now you tell me how that is possible? I lock them up and slide, and she doesn't yet i stop way faster, and sooner than she does.
I also refuse to believe that even though i have a brembo braking system, and 4pot calipers have anything to do with it's ability to stop in the snow... locking them up is locking them up. Can you explain why that works out of curiousity?

ok first off w body stock brakes suck a dogs you know what period. a Subaru was made to drive in snow, that's where they got their good name from. so im not surprised that your car stops better in any conditions vs a w body.


the problem i have i guess is that a lot of kids read this site daily, 16 to low 20's and they haven't had nearly enough driving experience to get away with it. not saying all kids are bad drivers but we all had to go out and learn on our own.

i agree abs stinks, if you know how to brake abs is worth less, most here dont have a clue how a car with no abs will act at all, most are to young. i've owned more cars and trucks with out abs than cars with it so im not a fan, i just adapted to how to brake with abs. like i said before, if the abs kicks in let off and reapply the brakes but not as hard, the car will slow down faster that way vs if you hear the abs pump whining and the pedal pulsing under your foot. ( in snow) to me that is the worst part of abs, damn car just keeps rolling and your along for the ride. but at least if you don't panic you can steer the car, why? because the wheels are still rolling. that is why abs was invented in the first place.


also after that pile of snow builds up in front of your tires, when you let off the brakes to maybe try to steer the car away from something it still wont respond right because you have a pile of snow in front of the tires witch will add more time to your reaction time. unless your all wheel drive, then you will be able to gas your way out, most dont know sometimes the gas pedal works better than the brakes. (in certain situations that is)

just so you know where my experience level is, ive got over a million miles under my belt. i have a cdl lic and i am a professional driver, (the law says i am anyways) its what i do all day!

ive played with all my cars and pushed them to the limits of safety, i was drifting way before drifting was cool, or a sport. on dry pavement. in snow ive had people sh1t a brick as i held the car or truck completely sideways doing 50 mph for a mile, all throttle control. and knowing your car very well. (obviously not in my regal) and for anyone who has never driven a all wheel drive or a 4x4, this is a total different style of driving, especially if in a slide. had a friend almost total his explorer because he slid and counter steered like he was driving a rwd and the front end just pulled him back and he almost slammed parked cars. ( this is why i always tell people to go to a open plowed parking lot and play, playing is learning.)

also i have over 20 years of snow plowing under my belt, ive driven through all sorts of snow, up to 2 and 3 feet deep. but a p/up with a 1000 lbs in the back and a 8' fisher plow up front is no match for just driving a car in snow, no contest here the plow truck goes faster and stops faster than any other car on the road, and that's a fact too.

over the last few years i would get a new Spanish shovel'er every storm due to scaring the living crap out of the last one, and when the new guy got in all his friends would just be laughing at him. and telling him to hold on.( they told him nothing) and i never had a crash in the snow except for the time i blew a brake line, (non abs truck) i tagged a van in the bumper with the plow. and every one always wonders why i do more work than them and finish faster. so yes i can be a animal on the road when need be.

and i would also love to go to one of them racing schools, im actually quite jelly of you on that one, sounds like a fun day to me. i do plan on going to a nascar track and and driving one of them, 1800 be petty and there is another one too i forget what is called atm nascar experience or something, one i make the height limit and the other i dont, im 6'6 and one school had 6'4 limit not sure witch one anymore tho.

Originally Posted by scottydoggs

a Subaru was made to drive in snow, that's where they got their good name from. so im not surprised that your car stops better in any conditions vs a w body.

This would matter if he wasn't locking up the wheels. I mean, sure, the suspension is probably set up a lot nicer for such a situation, but it's probably not that significant.

every car make works differently then the next make or model. and scoobys have a lot of rally inspiration, (they put what they learn in the cars they sell) so i'd say its a better car all around, wouldn't you think so? im sure it handles better all around.

every one here who has one seems to love it, and they had w body first, or we wouldn't even know them lol

Our weight dist is 65/35.

And brake dist isn't static.

Been driving all day in evil snow rain slush.....I love my abs