2002 GTP 199K runnning fine then dead

[airhead]

Greetings All,

2002 GTP 199K miles. Car was running fine. I replaced the belts because it was time and the wife took the car, put gas in it ( a place we
have used for years with no problems) and made errand stops. After the third stop, the car would not keep running, it would start and
then die after about 1 second. If you tried to keep it running, the engine would really jump around like I remember bad timing from
years ago.

We called a wrecker and after the car had set for several hours, it cranked up fine and ran good until the engine got up to temperature,
then it would get real rough and finally die. This let me get it on the wrecker and into the garage at home. The next morning, it would
spin but not even run for a second. Just occasional knocks and like it was trying to backfire.

Reading in this excellent forum seemed to point to the crankshaft position sensor which I changed yesterday. Didn't help as the car still
won't fire and am getting a strong odor of gasoline when we try and start it. I can hear the fuel pressure come up and there is no gas in
the vacum line on the FPR.

I don't own a code scanner so I'm at a bit of a loss now as to how to proceed. Any thoughts or advice on how to proceed as well as
recommendations on a good scanner would be sincerely appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[MCbatt]

With scanners you can really buy any of them that read codes and if you have a smart phone that runs on android I believe, you can get an app called toque pro and would just need a blu tooth adapter and you can then read codes and see different diagnostics for your car. On the issues with it running, Has it ever had the MAF sensor changed or even just had the throttle body cleaned? It could just be having issues with that from being dirty, if it is your MAF you can try unplugging it and run the car to see if it will run that way but don't go driving around with it unplugged. There are a lot of others here on the forum that can give you a better idea on what could be going on so maybe wait and see what some of the others think.

[Timing]

So your saying that the fp is kicking on but you see no fuel at the rail when you push in the schrader valve? Is the fuel filter clogged?

[Scottydoggs]

check for fuel and spark first as always.

[Turbocharged400sbc]

you managed to drag the ICM to crank sensor harness into the pulleys.

dead givaway is that you did the belts...and the clips that hold the harness to the AC bracket never seems to get put back...so it usually ends up snagged

i just replaced yet another one the other day....had gotten dragged into the compressor clutch pulley...massive noise/signal dropout on the 3x reference signal to the icm (using a DSO). youll notice that at points it starts as though the ignition timing is 90* advance (popping out the intake/exhaust).

replaced harness (prob coulda just moved it back as the wires werent totally rubbed through...but i didnt wanna sell a car that was gonna have lots of odd crap due to corrosion happeing at that rubbed through area.

[airhead]

Thanks for all of the great ideas. This is the third set of belts I've done on this car and try to be really careful but there's always the first time and the coincedence certainly fits. I even had a third party check my work but we certainly could have missed something. I'll check that and the fuel rail again. Where exactly would the wires be?

Thanks again and more thoughts are always welcome.

[Turbocharged400sbc]

the wire loom runs behind the iron SC tensioner bracket, between the block and lower coolant hose inlet at the timing cover down to between the ac compressor and crank pulley, where the CMP (cam sensor) pigtail runs over the top of the balancer (its usually tucked into the plastic crank sensor shroud to keep it from getting caught...but ive seen em pop out of there) while the CKP (crank) pigtail makes a turn into the crank sensor.

there is suppposed to be a clip to hold that 3 way split section ofthe icm harness to the AC compressor bracket or bracket bolt...that clip is almost always not there...and that 3 way can get dragged into the belts

[airhead]

The wires appear fine. The lines over the top to the cam sensor are in the clip and I can feel the rest from the crank sensor all the way towards the top of the engine. Nothing looks or feels out of place but am going to remove the tire and splash cover to be sure.

How much fuel pressure should there be at the schrader valve with the key on? Mind is not in the gutter but I get about a 4 inch spurt very low pressure and that's it. No more.

Thanks.

[Scottydoggs]

get a pressure gauge to see what it is, key on it should keep spraying out. not stop like its out of pressure.

you want to se over 42 psi key to run.

[airhead]

Went out and bought a code scanner and pressure gauge. Changed the fuel filter and the fuel rail has 42 pounds on it. The code scanner says no codes and I know the scanner works as it correctly identified a known bad O2 sensor on another car.

I'll get back into the harmonic balancer area tomorrow to check the wiring from the belt change but I can feel them and all appear to be in place and don't seem close to a pulley that I can see. If I didn't cut a wire, not sure where to go from here.

Thanks again for all the help.

[airhead]

Pulled the front tire and splash cover. Rechecked all the wiring and nothing has come close to any of the pulleys. Engines fires but won't run. Still no codes. Drained some gas as the tank was filled right before this happened as well as the belt change. Waiting to see if anything separates out. Fuel is yellow but I think that's OK for premium unleaded. 42 pounds on the fuel rail.

[Timing]

Checkfor spark. Crank or icm is probly toast

Just seen you swapped the crank sensor. Bring it back and say its bad just to rule that out. Ive sold 3 crank sensors in a row to find a good one. And then f the car runs do a case relearn.

[airhead]

I just did the bent pin trick on the fuel pump relay to bypass the resister and the car started right up. There is only one relay in my car. It was rough but ran.
There is a resister relocation kit for 97- 00s but mines a 02. Does it have a fuel pump resister? Where is it?
Thanks.

[Scottydoggs]

that trick only works up to 01. dont think you have a resistor. it would be near the battery in the fender if you were to have one.

[airhead]

The fuel thing got the car running but isn't the issue. Bent the pin back and car still ran for about a minute.

Unplugged the Mass Airflow Sensor and the car cranked and actually ran until I shut it off . Was rough with lots of black smoke but it ran. When I plugged the sensor back in, it only ran for around 30 seconds before it died. I'm really suspicious of that sensor but it's really expensive.

Any good tests? Would the one in the wife's 97 GT work to swap for a test?

Thanks.

[Scottydoggs]

those maf's are not the same. junk yard or e bay they run 40 ish used. the part # is on the top of the maf, search that #.

[airhead]

Working next couple of days. Will be hunting for a MAF.
Will keep the thread updated. Thanks to all again.

[airhead]

Hello All,
the MAF sensor did not do the trick.
Car is throwing a P0101 code. I've replaced the MAF sensor, Crankshaft position sensor, fuel filter. 42 pounds on the rail.
Car will run with the MAF unplugged. Will only run till warm with it plugged in.
Ideas? Thanks.

[camopaint0707]

Sounds like an internal issue

[airhead]

The real culprit finally reared its ugly head. There is a vacuum tee underneath the front of the supercharger. Seems a shop I had change the water pump bypass hoses ( 2 years ago) or another one that did the intake manifold gaskets probably broke it and taped it with some black tape pretty well impossible to see unless you really looked close. I doubt it was the one that did the gaskets as that was a dealer and they had to do it twice. Second time was no charge and they even gave me a free car to use.

The tape had started coming off and the crack would open up enough to kill the engine once it got hot. I finally heard some "hissing" and found the problem in about 3 minutes. Replaced the vacuum harness with proper GM replacement and the car is running like new.
I think the next time I have to take the car to a shop, I think a hidden camera under the hood would be a real hoot !!!

I just want to say thanks for all of the great advice on this forum. You all have always been the best !!!
Later.