Thread: oversized harmonic balancer

Check into Embree Machine (AKA ESM) they are here in the US and worked on M90's in the past. Just don't ask them to do any welding, they also had an abraidable coating as well iirc.

Jeff

Originally Posted by J57ltr

He doesn't have that information because he doesn't even know what was done, in the thread it mentions re-balancing after they are are drilled, that I believe should be common sense. It was several years later when I learned how to balance rotors.

It requires 60 HP on a Supercoupe early model supercharger to make 13psi. This has been proven before we had supercharger dyno information, and information from Eaton on the subject.

lightening the rotors was actually done on several occasions with success and failure. Not long after the thread I linked was done I did a lot of work on superchargers. I disassembled them all the way down to the bearings in the cartridge plate, I learned how to time them, because it's not as easy as you think. I weighed the rotors and all of the rotating components and had information on all of that.

Unfortunately when The SCCOA and the TBSCEC merged the information on the TBSCEC was transferred into the paying section of the SCCOA to keep out all the guys that just wanted to come and hang out and was dedicated to the technical side of SC's there is a wealth of information in there. Most of the guys there were fed up with the parrots and that's how the TBSCEC was formed. I cannot tell you how many of the guys were/are engineers with different backgrounds and the exchange of ideas is a lot of the reason why there are so many much faster SC's running M90's than there are GP's running M90's.

Another thing I see here is the piss poor porting jobs. I see ported supercahrger and look at what was done (or not done) and see a bunch of superchargers where people run a sanding roll across the inside surface of the blower housing and they call that "porting", hell that's not even polishing.

There are too many bolt on boys here that think because they bolt on a set of headers, an intake and pulley they think they know all there is to know about this platform and they are an expert. The fact is there is about maybe a handful of people on this site that know their stuff when it comes to these cars, then there are a ton of guys that barely know which end of the wrench to hold.

Then there's a guy talking about "rotational moment of inertia", but doesn't even know how much a rotor by itself weighs, how much material could be removed and it's weight, yet he's talking about light weight flywheels.

Where's that Jackie Chan frustration meme.

Jeff

you mean to tell me if i pull the supercharger that i can free up 60HP?!?! /yellow

Originally Posted by NebTurboST5

you mean to tell me if i pull the supercharger that i can free up 60HP?!?! /yellow

u stahp

Originally Posted by NebTurboST5

you mean to tell me if i pull the supercharger that i can free up 60HP?!?! /yellow

Are you kidding me guy? You realize it takes power to make power correct? So then you understand the point of diminishing returns also correct? This is the kind of ignorance I see on this board. You don't even understand that in order to make boost it's going to get harder and harder to turn the more the pressure goes up. Just as it takes power to turn the air compressor to cool your car it takes power to make boost. If you don't understand this fundamental fact I suggest you go back to basic physics.

Jeff

Edit: Sarcasm noted....

Originally Posted by SgtMarshal

just talked to Wade at embree machine aka the high speed lab, and he said they did a rotor lightening on an m45 as an experiment to see if it would be cost effective or something they could do to make money on, and it ended up being a lot of work, so hard to justify the cost. He did say they could get whatever parts for the M90 that I needed.

Wade is the guy, so you were speaking to the right guy. I forgot they changed their name, kinda like I keep refering to O'rileys as Hi-Lo. He used to do a lot of rebuilds and he even replaced rotor cartridge bearings and screwed them in place with some flathead screws. It's easier to just replace the whole cartridge though.

Jeff

I'd just rather upgrade the rotors themselves.

Hybrid designs sucked back when.

Someone needs to figure out some 4-rotor lobes.

Because this price is silly: http://www.maceengineering.com.au/M9...GHT-ROTOR-PACK

I had written and deleted three responses so far. I will just leave it alone. But my parting words will echo P.T. Barnum who said there's a sucker born every minute! It goes with a fool and their $ are soon parted. Would love to see some so called professors of knowledge here put their $ where there mouth is, buy those nice lightweight rotors, dyno an engine, remove the stock rotors and replace with those fancy smancy thingys and report back here the difference! Then, maybe then, but I doubt it, I'd believe it would make any marginal difference worth the expense!

Anyways, have a nice day!

13.4-33.4 Hp is nothing to sneeze at. I am not that familiar with Mace engineering, but every high performance 3.8 built car I have seen out of that area has had their parts on them. IC's and engine parts so I would imagine they are fairly well respected. You can try to PT Barnum this all you want, but you don't seem to be aware of the dynamics involved here. Your having to accelerate right at 11 pounds now this cuts the weight down by about 4.4Lbs so now you are down to 6.6 lbs. That's a pretty good drop in my book especially when your spinning the blower a lot faster. It's even a more dramatic difference than dropping that same amount from a flywheel, torque converter or balancer , since you have to take blower drive into account and it's a multiple of the drive ratio difference.

Jeff

Originally Posted by coolone

I had written and deleted three responses so far. I will just leave it alone. But my parting words will echo P.T. Barnum who said there's a sucker born every minute! It goes with a fool and their $ are soon parted. Would love to see some so called professors of knowledge here put their $ where there mouth is, buy those nice lightweight rotors, dyno an engine, remove the stock rotors and replace with those fancy smancy thingys and report back here the difference! Then, maybe then, but I doubt it, I'd believe it would make any marginal difference worth the expense!

Anyways, have a nice day!

You wrote and deleted 3 responses? Should have been 4...

What's your background in the 3800? I'm a self declared noob, I'll easily admit my limited knowledge in this platform. But I've seen you on the forums mostly dissuading anyone from going further than you think they should. What's your M.O.? Why do you feel you have to regulate what happens in anyone's build, regardless of how outlandish it may seem to you? Maybe I haven't been around long enough and you're the guy who has been there done that in about every category? Seriously though, I'd like to know exactly what cutting edge modifications you have contributed to the community.

Originally Posted by bandook

You wrote and deleted 3 responses? Should have been 4...

What's your background in the 3800? I'm a self declared noob, I'll easily admit my limited knowledge in this platform. But I've seen you on the forums mostly dissuading anyone from going further than you think they should. What's your M.O.? Why do you feel you have to regulate what happens in anyone's build, regardless of how outlandish it may seem to you? Maybe I haven't been around long enough and you're the guy who has been there done that in about every category? Seriously though, I'd like to know exactly what cutting edge modifications you have contributed to the community.

Do you know how to read? Its all good... You keep dismissing what I say and make it into something else. I have said repeatedly that you can do it, I've done it, everyone can do it. But for most noobs as you say, sometimes they read something and think they found the holy grail, that they're going to do something and end up with this or that. If you read what I have posted, yes, in many a thread, is information to help someone from wasting money. I've mentioned there are tried and true paths to achieving what they want, ie, more power. As in this post, the OP is all over the place and clearly has a few issues maybe making a focused decision. It's not dissuasion, but recommendation. You misinterpret my post and take it to a different level. You and anybody can do what ever they like, but they come to the forum and ask questions, so will get responses. Just as you say, because I offer a different opinion than the OP or even some others here whether a 10k poster on the board or a newbie that has some knowledge, it's all the same. What I didn't do, was attack anyone as you've done. It's clear you have some issues, but they're not mine. I will post my opinion as it is my own and see fit. As I said, good luck with your endeavors (OP), but don't punk out if you go and do it. Get the real deal info and come back to let us all know how it turns out. I'm just as curious as everyone else, only difference is I'm not trying to convince you to spend your money on something that will not achieve the results your looking for. For as I have said, in my opinion, power is created elsewhere with a better and bigger bang for the buck. Yes, you can do it differently, but you'll eventually go the route so many have gone before, following those who've have achieved the results you seek.

Lastly, I don't need to have made any cutting edge contributions to a 3800 engine build, but I'm smart enough to know those who have, and can repeat their results because I'm just that kinda guy, apparently smarter than quite a few. I don't try and fit square pegs in round holes. Now, if you really insist on continuing, I suggest you go play in traffic or something, because I'm heading back to the beach and really couldn't care what you think.

Originally Posted by J57ltr

13.4-33.4 Hp is nothing to sneeze at. I am not that familiar with Mace engineering, but every high performance 3.8 built car I have seen out of that area has had their parts on them. IC's and engine parts so I would imagine they are fairly well respected. You can try to PT Barnum this all you want, but you don't seem to be aware of the dynamics involved here. Your having to accelerate right at 11 pounds now this cuts the weight down by about 4.4Lbs so now you are down to 6.6 lbs. That's a pretty good drop in my book especially when your spinning the blower a lot faster. It's even a more dramatic difference than dropping that same amount from a flywheel, torque converter or balancer , since you have to take blower drive into account and it's a multiple of the drive ratio difference.

Jeff

Jeff, I do understand, what I have stated is the result is too marginal to really make a difference unless seeking the last bit of HP you can squeeze out of a build. Am I missing something? 13 hp can be dismissed, 33+, maybe not, but if this had that big of an effect, it would've never just faded away and every 3800 vendor with SC builds or parts would have been selling them. Never happened. I don't doubt as you mention the build that hogged out a SC as it had no business being, but that's not whats going in here. It's a simple mod, whereas the OP thinks dropping in a light rotor pack is going to make more HP, generate less heat and create more boost! Only way I know achieving that is to move to a different SC, or, Whipple. : ) and you really can't compare an Eaton M90 to a Whipple... Lol

Coolone,

The reason these things don't take off is that people are cheap. When I had my SC I would have given my right for a set of $200 headers. SC headers were over $750 and we only had a single supplier and that was Kooks. Have you ever tried to see about getting a group buy together on something that is a good deal? You have all these people that want it and everyone says they are going to get it then when it comes to get the rubber to the road they scatter like cockroaches when you flip the lights on, and the group buy implodes. Very rarely works and people get pretty good deals on things they could really use. I've seen group buys on intercoolers, 42# injectors and many others just vaporize. I even offered injector cleaning and flow testing, made a post asking if there was any interest and the poll went over 200 people, in the end I did injectors for about 25-30 people over a several year span. I'm going to check it out and get it going again for myself, but probably won't advertise it, then again I may.

I just find it funny that a Supercoupe with a stock engine headers and exhaust with a properly made M90 blower, Inlet and throttle body and a 3.3:1 drive ratio can make 317 whp and 360 ft/lbs torque. But A 3800 can't even touch that without significantly more. The tech is out there you guys just aren't looking, because you think you know it all. Bandook is one of the few people here to do a proper porting job on his heads. Where is the tech for porting heads? Where is the tech for IC's and I have seen probably 6 dyno prints on this board, where are the timeslips? There are a few, but this just doesn't seem like a technically oriented board, so I guess you are right, why bother.

Jeff

Originally Posted by J57ltr

Coolone,

The reason these things don't take off is that people are cheap. When I had my SC I would have given my right for a set of $200 headers. SC headers were over $750 and we only had a single supplier and that was Kooks. Have you ever tried to see about getting a group buy together on something that is a good deal? You have all these people that want it and everyone says they are going to get it then when it comes to get the rubber to the road they scatter like cockroaches when you flip the lights on, and the group buy implodes. Very rarely works and people get pretty good deals on things they could really use. I've seen group buys on intercoolers, 42# injectors and many others just vaporize. I even offered injector cleaning and flow testing, made a post asking if there was any interest and the poll went over 200 people, in the end I did injectors for about 25-30 people over a several year span. I'm going to check it out and get it going again for myself, but probably won't advertise it, then again I may.

I just find it funny that a Supercoupe with a stock engine headers and exhaust with a properly made M90 blower, Inlet and throttle body and a 3.3:1 drive ratio can make 317 whp and 360 ft/lbs torque. But A 3800 can't even touch that without significantly more. The tech is out there you guys just aren't looking, because you think you know it all. Bandook is one of the few people here to do a proper porting job on his heads. Where is the tech for porting heads? Where is the tech for IC's and I have seen probably 6 dyno prints on this board, where are the timeslips? There are a few, but this just doesn't seem like a technically oriented board, so I guess you are right, why bother.

Jeff

insert foot in mouth, understand that rwd 3.8 doesn't have the drive train loss that FWD 3800 has. Please quit acting like your a 3.8 god. I know you understand ford but you haven't obviously seen all the builds over the years.

Really? and how much more of a loss would that be over an automatic RWD? And if that's your only argument then I guess the Fbody guys either don't mess with the 3.8 or they go turbo or something? Not really seeing a lot of high HP cars there either, and yes I am aware that it's difficult to fit an M90 under there because of clearance issues with an intake. I'm not saying I'm a 3.8 god, but you still can't get around the fact that the output levels are pretty pathetic. Everything on this site is so cookie cutter and if someone mentions something that goes against the the basic bolt ons everybody jumps on board and beats them into submission. I can't tell you how many times I've seen this happen. I watched this site in the past and when I actually bought my GTP I searched and wandered threads for days just to see what was available and I kept running across threads that didn't go anywhere. It's like there is a crab mentality here. Every time someone wants to try something they get pulled down by the rest.

i have seen a lot of builds over the years and they are few and far between.

Originally Posted by J57ltr

Are you kidding me guy? You realize it takes power to make power correct? So then you understand the point of diminishing returns also correct? This is the kind of ignorance I see on this board. You don't even understand that in order to make boost it's going to get harder and harder to turn the more the pressure goes up. Just as it takes power to turn the air compressor to cool your car it takes power to make boost. If you don't understand this fundamental fact I suggest you go back to basic physics.

Jeff

Edit: Sarcasm noted....