Thread: KR.... Educate me please

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  1. #21 Re: KR.... Educate me please 
    GTX Level Member hensleya1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrandonHall10 View Post
    Why is it...

    From a 40 roll, when I stab the throttle, it drops a gear and I can see the KR spike to 10+ degrees. I let off after a second, but not more than two.
    BUT...
    From a stop, or even if I'm already moving, if I roll the throttle to 100%, I can run all the way up to the shift with less than one full degree.

    Current mods:
    E85, 1;9RR's, Headers, 3.1" pulley. The only thing engine/fuel related I changed in the tune was scaling the injectors for E85.

    Can someone explain why aggressive throttle entry would cause so much KR, but slow(er) entry would cause almost none? Just looking for knowledge.

    Thanks.
    I finally have an answer, because I just figured it out myself. At higher power levels the torque converter if stock will act strange sometimes. On a stock trans tune, the TCC does not unlock the converter until almost 50% throttle. That's an enormous amount of load placed on the converter that's suddenly broken free. This effect is amplified if you have a larger throttle body (I have a Northstar), as 50% throttle position on a N* is way more than the same TPS on an L67 TB... The result being the TCC stays locked far longer than it should.

    For some reason when it releases under load it generates a noise that reads as a massive amount of KR.

    I first suspected my 42# injectors were too small for the job so I put 60's on, only to have the same problem.

    So, we lowered the TCC unlock threshold with the tuner to a more reasonable 25%... And voila, the KR was 1-2 degrees.

    In other words, I just need a beefier torque converter.
    2003 GT Limited Edition 199k - The $600 winter beater.
    2004 Buick LeSabre 172k - Top Swapped, 3.5 pulley, 1.9 rockers, SLP headers... still slow...
    MAKE AMERICA FAST AGAIN!
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  2. #22 Re: KR.... Educate me please 
    Turbo is the way to go. Fivefingerdeathpunch's Avatar
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    Word player, I was just gong to say it's the converter trying to unlock.

    SMGPFC Member #1
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  3. #23 Re: KR.... Educate me please 
    Donating Users bandook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
    I finally have an answer, because I just figured it out myself. At higher power levels the torque converter if stock will act strange sometimes. On a stock trans tune, the TCC does not unlock the converter until almost 50% throttle. That's an enormous amount of load placed on the converter that's suddenly broken free. This effect is amplified if you have a larger throttle body (I have a Northstar), as 50% throttle position on a N* is way more than the same TPS on an L67 TB... The result being the TCC stays locked far longer than it should.

    For some reason when it releases under load it generates a noise that reads as a massive amount of KR.

    I first suspected my 42# injectors were too small for the job so I put 60's on, only to have the same problem.

    So, we lowered the TCC unlock threshold with the tuner to a more reasonable 25%... And voila, the KR was 1-2 degrees.

    In other words, I just need a beefier torque converter.
    Same thing I've just noticed on mine. I get 3-4 degrees KR when it downshifts, and was wondering what tcc table exactly to try to adjust. I'll try what you did, thanks.
    Top Swapped 01 Imp
    VS (very small?) cam, SD Headers, 2.8" pulley, 29°, ported everything, E85, AEM water/meth, Deka 60's, HPT tuned
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  4. #24 Re: KR.... Educate me please 
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    Quote Originally Posted by fst View Post
    c the other thing someone mentioned is the converter not unlocking soon enough and the extra load is on there when in boost. i can bet yours is unlocking above 35% throttle. see if you can lower it to either 30% or like mine, around the 25% mark (i start getting into boost at 30% throttle)
    i'll leave this right here :-p
    old setup-Z7 Turbo Kit w/T66, A2A I/C, stock cam & valvetrain/LS1 MAF/Ported 99TB/PowrTuner/AFC/Devils Own/LS1M Scanner/PRJ FP/42# Injs=12.3@118mph street tires -
    (Sold)BACK TO M90 Vs cam w/3.5" pulley/meth/25* timing+bolt-ons
    01 Z28 A4 HP-self-tuned, LTs, FTRA, 3600stall 12.3@112mph
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  5. #25 Re: KR.... Educate me please 
    GTX Level Member hensleya1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandook View Post
    Same thing I've just noticed on mine. I get 3-4 degrees KR when it downshifts, and was wondering what tcc table exactly to try to adjust. I'll try what you did, thanks.
    on the tuner look for TCC apply and release parameters for 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears. You'll see at which speed versus TPS the tcc will apply. Change anything above 25% throttle to something absurd like 255 mph so it never happens. You'll see those same numbers for higher throttle settings already

    Quote Originally Posted by fst View Post
    i'll leave this right here :-p
    OK, wifey. You were right and I was wrong
    2003 GT Limited Edition 199k - The $600 winter beater.
    2004 Buick LeSabre 172k - Top Swapped, 3.5 pulley, 1.9 rockers, SLP headers... still slow...
    MAKE AMERICA FAST AGAIN!
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  6. #26 Re: KR.... Educate me please 
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    AFAIK tcc doesnt apply in 2nd gear from factory unless you make it to.
    old setup-Z7 Turbo Kit w/T66, A2A I/C, stock cam & valvetrain/LS1 MAF/Ported 99TB/PowrTuner/AFC/Devils Own/LS1M Scanner/PRJ FP/42# Injs=12.3@118mph street tires -
    (Sold)BACK TO M90 Vs cam w/3.5" pulley/meth/25* timing+bolt-ons
    01 Z28 A4 HP-self-tuned, LTs, FTRA, 3600stall 12.3@112mph
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  7. #27 Re: KR.... Educate me please 
    Donating Users bandook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
    on the tuner look for TCC apply and release parameters for 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears. You'll see at which speed versus TPS the tcc will apply. Change anything above 25% throttle to something absurd like 255 mph so it never happens. You'll see those same numbers for higher throttle settings already



    OK, wifey. You were right and I was wrong

    OK thanks. Were you also getting kr while in 4th under load? If I'm going 40-45mph up an incline I always get kr.
    Top Swapped 01 Imp
    VS (very small?) cam, SD Headers, 2.8" pulley, 29°, ported everything, E85, AEM water/meth, Deka 60's, HPT tuned
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  8. #28 Re: KR.... Educate me please 
    Solving problems BrandonHall10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
    on the tuner look for TCC apply and release parameters for 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears. You'll see at which speed versus TPS the tcc will apply. Change anything above 25% throttle to something absurd like 255 mph so it never happens. You'll see those same numbers for higher throttle settings already
    So like, from this:


    to this: (?)
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  9. #29 Re: KR.... Educate me please 
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandook View Post
    OK thanks. Were you also getting kr while in 4th under load? If I'm going 40-45mph up an incline I always get kr.
    yes my fix was lowering the timing in the GFS table where you're getting KR. in my DHP table i lowered it by 2 degrees, somewhere from 12-13* down to like 9-11* in the 1800-2200 RPM and in the 3/4 row cylinder pressure.

    edit-the other bandaid is tap the brake with the left foot (or let off the gas pedal so the tcc unlocks) and apply enough gas to just be near zero vacuum right before going into boost (~27-29% throttle) to go up on the incline. this is with the tc unlock at 25% btw
    old setup-Z7 Turbo Kit w/T66, A2A I/C, stock cam & valvetrain/LS1 MAF/Ported 99TB/PowrTuner/AFC/Devils Own/LS1M Scanner/PRJ FP/42# Injs=12.3@118mph street tires -
    (Sold)BACK TO M90 Vs cam w/3.5" pulley/meth/25* timing+bolt-ons
    01 Z28 A4 HP-self-tuned, LTs, FTRA, 3600stall 12.3@112mph
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  10. #30 Re: KR.... Educate me please 
    GTX Level Member hensleya1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrandonHall10 View Post
    So like, from this:


    to this: (?)
    We have a winner

    What TB do you have though?
    2003 GT Limited Edition 199k - The $600 winter beater.
    2004 Buick LeSabre 172k - Top Swapped, 3.5 pulley, 1.9 rockers, SLP headers... still slow...
    MAKE AMERICA FAST AGAIN!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #31 Re: KR.... Educate me please 
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    with the revised table (2nd one) the tcc will unlock when you go over 18% instead of the 25%.
    old setup-Z7 Turbo Kit w/T66, A2A I/C, stock cam & valvetrain/LS1 MAF/Ported 99TB/PowrTuner/AFC/Devils Own/LS1M Scanner/PRJ FP/42# Injs=12.3@118mph street tires -
    (Sold)BACK TO M90 Vs cam w/3.5" pulley/meth/25* timing+bolt-ons
    01 Z28 A4 HP-self-tuned, LTs, FTRA, 3600stall 12.3@112mph
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #32 Re: KR.... Educate me please 
    Solving problems BrandonHall10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
    What TB do you have though?
    Stock

    Quote Originally Posted by fst View Post
    with the revised table (2nd one) the tcc will unlock when you go over 18% instead of the 25%.
    Woops... So, this: (?)



    That would put the unlock OVER 25%
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  13. #33 Re: KR.... Educate me please 
    GTX Level Member hensleya1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrandonHall10 View Post
    Stock



    Woops... So, this: (?)



    That would put the unlock OVER 25%
    with a stock TB I would recommend over 25%. Otherwise it'll break loose when climbing a hill or just randomly. I have a N* and mine is set to anything above 25
    2003 GT Limited Edition 199k - The $600 winter beater.
    2004 Buick LeSabre 172k - Top Swapped, 3.5 pulley, 1.9 rockers, SLP headers... still slow...
    MAKE AMERICA FAST AGAIN!
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  14. #34 Re: KR.... Educate me please 
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    only if he is flooring it going up (pending mods ) but if only just to unlock the tc and maintain or increase his speed gradually with flow of traffic, at 25% is fine imo
    old setup-Z7 Turbo Kit w/T66, A2A I/C, stock cam & valvetrain/LS1 MAF/Ported 99TB/PowrTuner/AFC/Devils Own/LS1M Scanner/PRJ FP/42# Injs=12.3@118mph street tires -
    (Sold)BACK TO M90 Vs cam w/3.5" pulley/meth/25* timing+bolt-ons
    01 Z28 A4 HP-self-tuned, LTs, FTRA, 3600stall 12.3@112mph
    Reply With Quote  
     

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