Have some money for one or two more mods... SI Valves or ti retainers?

**Z34Phoenix** · 12-16-2011

Ok my heads are almost done being ported and looking great. for those who cant read my sig, the engine is an L36 that is getting a topswap.

so 9.4:1 compression with 4t65e 3.29's
Gen3 M90 with 3.8" will be ported with a northstar to match
Ported heads
105# springs
viaton seals
1.8 SLP roller rockers

Speed daddy headers
2.5" high flow exhaust with magnaflow

i am budgeted for another mod so i was thinking to finish my light weight valve train...
i cant find a price for Ti retainers on any site. and are these modd'ed incase i chose to pull the rockers down the road and go cam?
im leaning toward the SI valves as they have the change to free up more mass then any other part left.
any other suggestions?

would swapping to a MPS 3.8 help with rotational mass be worth it? i would think the vavles would be a bigger savings anyway. and now is the time to do it before the heads go on.

any other ideas? i have about 2 weeks before i have to put the topswap on.

**Hippo Machine** · 12-16-2011

Don't get a MPS until you are ready to get a smaller pulley.

I would order ZZP's ER rockers and sell the ones you have right now or cam it.

Make an intake if you haven't.

Get pistons! hehe

**Z34Phoenix** · 12-16-2011

Already have an intake and know those basics. The ER rockers are for NA I will be SC'd when the rockers go on. I have no plans of selling any of the parts I have so far. I will get a cam down the road but right now this is the setup. I still think going to lighter valves will help cut rotational mass and should be the next purchas. I'm just hunting for other mods to complement what I currently have not reinvent it

**Hippo Machine** · 12-17-2011

Idk what your budget is right now, but JE forged pistons would nearly eliminate the chance of getting a chipped piston, which is very common in top swaps.

**matt5112** · 12-17-2011

forged pistons are nearly a grand.

and the machine work and other parts are over a grand.

for a total of $2000.

How many short blocks can you buy for that price?

On the topic of Si valves.

They're the right size, but I'm not convinced of the quality.

**Z34Phoenix** · 12-17-2011

thanks matt. yeah pistons arent ever going to be on the table for me. id rather to rockers right now for the fact im not comfortable to do a cam. but i would feel much better on doing a cam before pistons.

Ok so how about Ti retainers? they worth the weight saving? and i cant seem to find a price on any vendors site.

**Sandman** · 12-17-2011

Intense Racing, go to the TI option for the retainers

INTENSE-Racing.com: Manley Performance Valvespring Retainers

You can usually get them used off the forums for around $100.

When I swapped from a 3.4 press on to my MPS I swear the motor felt a little peppier. Down the road I'm going to go with some lightweight stuff in the accessories. Me and you are going to have very similar setups when we're done. I've been wanting to upgrade the valvetrain to lightweight components as well. I haven't heard good things about the valves, on FTV6 one member's valves were all sorts of different heights.

**Z34Phoenix** · 12-17-2011

what setup are you runing/ planning to run? it would be nice to have someone with a similar setup to compare notes with and bounce ideas off of. what kind of goals do you have? Im aiming for 13.8 1/4 as i would like to drop another second off my PB from the DOHC. Once in the 13's i think im gonna keep it there. i should be happy with with it for quite some time. if i want more/ faster i'll be saving for a TEP trany first.

**Sandman** · 12-17-2011

L26, 3.8 pulley, ported outlet on the blower, stock TB, wrapped PLOG/3" DP, 1.84 YT rockers, lightly touched L32 heads (smoothed intake, polished combustion chamber, polished exhaust), 180*. Probably as far as I'll go for a long time, I just need a car that runs properly and something that I don't need to worry about.

**Z34Phoenix** · 12-17-2011

wow yeah pretty close. my heads are pretty agressive though, more then just polished. I removed a good amount of casting inside the ports and used all the tricks i have learned over the years. i have pictures of stage 3 heads i used as ref. I also plan to run a north star TB as its much easier to grab one of those from the junk yard and put it on then spend time porting a l67.

**Sandman** · 12-17-2011

I don't know to much with porting heads so I'm not going to try on the set that goes on my car. Just some basic stuff to help with some KR. You should be good for more than a stock pulley with those heads I'd imagine. I'm going to hope for 13s as well, I figured I should be able to get there.

**Z34Phoenix** · 12-17-2011

i have the 4t65e wtih 3.29's... i had 3.73's on my DOHC up from the stock 3.43's. yeah im proud of how the heads are coming out. i have some ideas i wanna try on the LIM too... have to look at it tomorrow... i just cant wait to here the whine of the blower.

lol was just thinking for the sig i can put L36/3.29's/3.8"/105#/104's/3"dp if someone didnt know these cars they would be like WhAT?

i was jsut thinking i have 105's and RR's float shouldnt be a problem at higher rpms as i doubt i'll ever wanna go above 6400 for a shift. or should i look at the ti retainers still?

**Sandman** · 12-17-2011

All of our mods are in code. It took me a while to figure out what everything meant lol.

Lighter valvetrain can never hurt. Will you need them? Probably not but why the hell not

I can't do anything with my car right now, no boost or it breaks up bad. So I haven't heard a whine in a couple of months, my foot is getting itchy now that I'm close to this swap.

**matt5112** · 12-17-2011

We seem to make power up to 5700-5900 with high ratio rockers on the stock cam.

Its not worth the risk of valve float if you're not making any power.

It seems the main issue with the Si valves is people undercut the valves for flow.

Then a short while down the road they break them.

If you left them as shipped they should be fine.

But there were quite a few issues there.

**Z34Phoenix** · 12-17-2011

i would be leaving the valves as they come. the valves have more weight to loose then the retaners... so now i dont know what to do. im leaning toward the valves cause i ever so slightly nicked one or two valves on the l67 heads when porting... i think they would be ok but still will prob ditch them and pull two from the l36 heads when they come off. that is if i dont get the SI's

so if it makes power till 5900 should it be shifting at 6000?

**Mjcanton** · 12-17-2011

From talking to some guys on other forums you should have no problems seeing 13's with that setup. A lot of people have estimated 14-13.9X for a top swap with headers and a solid tune. I'd also think you could use a 3.6" pulley with all of the flow mods you have there for the swap. I'm doing a swap in May and I'm planning on a MPS with both 3.8" and 3.6" pulleys to see which ones I can run. I'll also have speed daddy headers and possibly a ported blower.

**Z34Phoenix** · 12-19-2011

OK thank you everyone. I chose the SI Valves. got them from WBS as they have free shipping i would have saved $2 at ZZP but ended up paying for shipping so it worked out. its going to be one slick build when done.

**darkhorizon** · 12-19-2011

The ER rockers are for NA I will be SC'd when the rockers go on.

Not really. ER rockers are for L26/L32 blocks that will not work with a 1.9 modded rocker. ER rockers would make 20+whp more than 1.8 SLP rockers.

JE forged pistons would nearly eliminate the chance of getting a chipped piston

If you are chipping pistons, you will just upgrade to breaking rods/rod bearings. Pistons will never save you from any damage in a 3800.

Ok so how about Ti retainers?

Considering they need to be replaced every few thousand miles, I consider them a pretty bad "upgrade". It also seems that the ones designed for LS1s are pretty crappy from most vendors as well.

i was jsut thinking i have 105's and RR's float shouldnt be a problem at higher rpms

I floated my 1.8 YT rockers WAY more than stock rockers... made more power at 4000rpms switching back to stock rockers too.... 105 springs suck usually as well. Also, there is no reason to shift at anything that isnt a stock shift point in terms of performance.... You dont make any more power at higher rpms 99/100 times, and you probably lose power passed stock shift points on a stock cam.

Lighter valvetrain can never hurt

It can, and it does. Less durability, and in the case of "lighter" rockers, the weight is distributed much worse than stock rockers. While you get less deflection with an aftermarket rocker, it hardly makes up for the gobs of other problems they create.

OK thank you everyone. I chose the SI Valves. got them from WBS as they have free shipping i would have saved $2 at ZZP but ended up paying for shipping so it worked out. its going to be one slick build when done.

Hah, look at the return address on the box that comes from WBS (post it here if you get bored).

Also, dont cut the factory seats to install those valves... You will have to get new seats installed if you need to have a different seat for those valves. Also know that they will be different heights and you will need to install a shim to maintain correct rocker geometry. Be sure to check that you are going to install the springs at 1.800 as well, you will probably have to use a stock 3800 retainer and not a LS1 retainer. Be sure to mill the guides down sigificantly (I usually go 0.100, sometimes more) so you dont run into any lift issues if you were ever to go with a cam, and or have to use a non modded retainer.

Honestly valves are one of the worst upgrades for a 3800... You are really going to be asking for trouble overall and properly installing a set of valves (at least valves worth upgrading to) with new seats runs into the $1000 range quite easily all said and done.

**Z34Phoenix** · 12-19-2011

GREAT! just GREAT! i have been asking for a while now and had this up for a few days and once i post that i bought them... now i get the info i wanted... if the valves dont match and fit i my heads they are getting returned! no where on WBS or ZZP for that mater says anything about needing custom seats, shims, or any other issues.

i just hope for my sake you are wrong...

well at least i didnt go with the Ti retainers!