Thread: The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant

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  1. #1 The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant 
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    I don't who all has been following the Big 3 during their time on the Congressional Hill these past few weeks, but I just wanted to take a moment and rant about it. I am sure some of you will chime in with your thoughts and ideas on the topic.

    I work for Thomson Reuters, we provide Stock and Analytical data to our customers around the world, we I watch a lot of stock and economy related TV at work. This past week and a little bit last week I got to see the Congressional Hearings involving the Big 3 Automakers pleeding their case before the Committe for $25 BILLION dollars.

    And I came away with the following feelings.

    1. The Big 3 CEOs have no freaking clue what they are talking about. Watching them try to pleed their case before the committe was like watching a train wreck waiting to happen. Richard Wagoner Jr from GM I think was the worst offender of all. The man could not give one straight answer to save his life. He stumbled around more than a drunk on nickle beer night! I could not belive such a man could run a company like GM.

    When the Congressmen pressed him for straight answers, he could not provide any. And if you watched his body movement and eye contact, it was deplorable. He could not even lie keeping eye contact with them. And then when he would stumble, which he did frequently, he would look at that others at the table hoping someone would throw him a lifeline or something. He came to this meeting totally unprepared to ask for the money the industry so desperately needs! And that is truly an American shame!

    2. Another spot I found quite amusing was when one of the Congressmen asked the Big 3 how they got to the meeting. They all basically stated they flew on private company jets. They claim that due to security concerns they have to do this. I find that extremely hard to believe, but I will give them some leway on that one. The next question the same Congressman asked was if they would sell their private jets and take a Commerical Airline home. I watched all three and especially Wagoner chuckle quitely and NONE raised their hands indicating they would do such a thing.

    To me this would have a prime time to gain some really big points with Congress and the American people. BUT NO! These pin stripped douches virtually laughed in Congress' face when the question was proposed. This to me shows just how greedy these CEO's are. And it shows just how much they want to pull a fast one over on the American people. And people wonder why they are failing? There is your prime example right there. Their erogance* is so over the top, they can not see what is before them. They are just worried about their pocketbook, their private jets and their pension. They don't give one hoot about the poor line worker or the person buying their product.

    MY solution to this mess.......(This is MY opinion only and does not reflect that of GPF or anyone associated with GPF)

    They should be forced into bankruptsy. The top execs and their boards should be disolved and rebuilt from the ground up. Look at how the Airlines handled their bankruptsy. They made it through with minimal damage. SURE there are negatives with Bankruptsy. Wagoner went on to state to Congress that supposidly 80% of Americans would not buy a car from a bankrupted Auto Company. Funny, all the Airlines that went bankrupt still kept their passangers and only saw increases as time wore on. I would love to know where he got this 80% of all Americans would not buy from a bankrupt Auto Company from.

    The industry is full of dinosaurs that need to be put to pasture and fresh new blood needs to be transfused into it if they want to survive. And the only way this would happen would be through getting rid of the CEOs and the board members for the Big 3. Ford is about the only one who is ahead of the game on the problem overall as stated by several congressmen during the hearings. GM is by far the worst. With Chrysler hanging by a tread above GM.

    And then the matter of the UAW comes into play. I know some of our members are in Unions of one type or another, but this is one big sore spot that needs to be addressed as well. I do not have exact figures on what the average UAW worker is paid, but I have heard ranges from $21-35 bucks an hour on the minimum. And that is a best guess. And I know from knowing some in the industry it is actually a lot more in other areas. This has to be addressed as well. If you are gonna cut the industry and start over, you have to look at the UAW. I am NOT saying the UAW should be fased out, though some would like to see that happen. But they provide an IMPORTANT part to the Auto industry as a whole.

    Granted over the many years they have gotten a bad rap, and some of it rightfully so, but for the most part they provided job security and benefits where they might not have gotten any at all if it weren't for the Union. But in this economy and jobs going over seas, they have to start thinking about self preservation. They are simply pricing themselves out of the work force. Plain and simple. Resturcturing needs to be done on that level as well.

    I think once all of that is done, and done correctly, we can have our Big 3 back in business and doing well again!

    Thanks for taking your time and reading this.
    Last edited by GeddyLee; 11-20-2008 at 02:47 PM.

    James Shafer
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  2. #2 Re: The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant 
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    I think if Congresses reluctance to give them the bail out money amidst all that they are handing out is not clue enough, I dont know what is. But I agree with you for the most part. I say let them go into bankruptcy and shed some weight and come out on the other side ready to fight for their positions in the market place as leaner, meaner, more fuel efficient producers that can show what domestic cars can really be even in times of need for much higher fuel efficiency.
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  3. #3 Re: The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant 
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    I know as of today, Congress has managed to come up with a package for the Big 3. They did not go into any details on the package, but a news conference is scheduled for later today to disucss it. It will be put into play until maybe December at best. Due to the upcoming holiday they will have only a few short weeks in December to try and hammer it out. I will be quite interested in hearing what the proposal is and if both sides of the house will pass it.

    Stay tuned

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  4. #4 Re: The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant 
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    Im concerned we are setting one VERY VERY bad precedent in all this. We are molding everyone to look at the government to bail them out no matter what it is. And I severely dislike the appearance the Big 3 are holding us hostage over the jobs issue. They are passing the buck. Dont bail us out and we'll show you. Instead they should be saying we screwed up, were arrogant and greedy and so on and if you bail us out we will do whatever is asked to make this work and better in the future.
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  5. #5 Re: The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant 
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    Quote Originally Posted by SyntheticShield View Post
    Im concerned we are setting one VERY VERY bad precedent in all this. We are molding everyone to look at the government to bail them out no matter what it is. And I severely dislike the appearance the Big 3 are holding us hostage over the jobs issue. They are passing the buck. Dont bail us out and we'll show you. Instead they should be saying we screwed up, were arrogant and greedy and so on and if you bail us out we will do whatever is asked to make this work and better in the future.
    Hummmmmmmmmmmmmm isn't that what the Big Oil companies basically said to Congress during the summertime?

    I think I see a pattern here............

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  6. #6 Re: The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant 
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    Let GM file bankruptcy. It's better for their future. All their contracts with the UAW will be dissolved and the big 3 won't be paying someone $30/hr to put wheels on a car going down an assembly line.
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  7. #7 Re: The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant 
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    I agree whole heartedly. I am ALL for high paying jobs, and I believe in an honest days wage for an honest days work but the fact is I point the finger largely at the Union for the auto makers inability to compete. Toyota and Hyundai dont have this problem, for instance and they STILL produce high quality vehicles at a competitive price and as far as I know their workers still make good money.
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  8. #8 Re: The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant 
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    Hello SOCIALISM!



    They should go belly up, they deserve it.
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  9. #9 Re: The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant 
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    To come back to this, after I cleared my head, a bail out or managed bankruptcy is required. The shear scope of what would happen to our economy if 10% of its workers lost their jobs is unthinkable. It'd be decades before we recovered. However, whichever is chosen (bailout or managed bankruptcy) there must be strict conditions adhered to.

    From Mr. Romney's piece:

    First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.

    That extra burden is estimated to be more than $2,000 per car. Think what that means: Ford, for example, needs to cut $2,000 worth of features and quality out of its Taurus to compete with Toyota’s Avalon. Of course the Avalon feels like a better product — it has $2,000 more put into it. Considering this disadvantage, Detroit has done a remarkable job of designing and engineering its cars. But if this cost penalty persists, any bailout will only delay the inevitable.

    Second, management as is must go. New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries — from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.

    The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end. This division is a holdover from the early years of the last century, when unions brought workers job security and better wages and benefits. But as Walter Reuther, the former head of the United Automobile Workers, said to my father, “Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead-end street.”

    You don’t have to look far for industries with unions that went down that road. Companies in the 21st century cannot perpetuate the destructive labor relations of the 20th. This will mean a new direction for the U.A.W., profit sharing or stock grants to all employees and a change in Big Three management culture.

    The need for collaboration will mean accepting sanity in salaries and perks. At American Motors, my dad cut his pay and that of his executive team, he bought stock in the company, and he went out to factories to talk to workers directly. Get rid of the planes, the executive dining rooms — all the symbols that breed resentment among the hundreds of thousands who will also be sacrificing to keep the companies afloat.

    Investments must be made for the future. No more focus on quarterly earnings or the kind of short-term stock appreciation that means quick riches for executives with options. Manage with an eye on cash flow, balance sheets and long-term appreciation. Invest in truly competitive products and innovative technologies — especially fuel-saving designs — that may not arrive for years. Starving research and development is like eating the seed corn.
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  10. #10 Re: The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant 
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    I heard him speaking on that, and I couldnt agree more.
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  11. #11 Re: The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant 
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    i dont wanna see GM go under.
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  12. #12 Re: The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant 
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    I dont want to see them go under either, but they definitely need to address the bloat, the unions, their contracts and all that and right now, the best place to do that is in bankruptcy. Unfortunately though, I think congress is going to bail them out and I'll take bets on how long it will be before they come back on private planes with their tin cups.
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  13. #13 Re: The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant 
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    Congress needs to nail some hard stipulations to this bail out if they go through with it.
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  14. #14 Re: The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabrewings View Post
    To come back to this, after I cleared my head, a bail out or managed bankruptcy is required. The shear scope of what would happen to our economy if 10% of its workers lost their jobs is unthinkable. It'd be decades before we recovered. However, whichever is chosen (bailout or managed bankruptcy) there must be strict conditions adhered to.

    From Mr. Romney's piece:
    Wow Mr. Romney and I must share part of the same brain!!!

    I agree with you Sabre', losing just 10% of the work force would be bad enough, but when you think back over the past few years, they have already done that and then some. As I said in my initial post, the UAW has done great things over they years, but they have also damaged themselves almost to the point of no return with their demands for higher wages and garunteed job security.

    I wish my job has security like that or even a fraction of what their paychecks are, but I work outside the Union world and live in "real" America where good money is truly hard to come by and your job is never truly safe. The people still working for the Big 3 and even the retirees are making out pretty good. Of course you are going to hear some grumble that their $35 dollars an hour is not enough! is up with that? I would do that job for $25 an hour and I would still be making almost $6 bucks an hour more than at my current job.

    This is something they, the UAW and the Union members really don't understand. They have had it good for many years now. And now its time to face the music of the fat lady, cause she is just warming up.

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  15. #15 Re: The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant 
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    i hope they go down! its just like someone comin up to u asking for money cause they f**k up spending it on useless crap and expect you to make up for it cause your the responsible one! and then if you dont there going to show u? like its your fault there in trouble,when in reality its there own!
    i work for a honda supplier and we work very hard, i only make 13 and hour but at least my job is secured plus they have really good perks 401k, paying for work boots and many other things that companies dont supply. also the owner and the japanese are out there helping and always come by to say hi and talk.

    oh yeah gm's owner sucks to! if i had the chance i beat his a$$! lol
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  16. #16 Re: The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant 
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisb View Post
    oh yeah gm's owner sucks to! if i had the chance i beat his a$$! lol
    GM is a publicly traded company, so people with investment accounts and such are the owners... Gonna kick my ass?
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  17. #17 Re: The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant 
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    haha no, sorry i should have been more clear i ment the CEO Rick Wagoner and his little buddies that fly around in there private jets that dont care about the working man.
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  18. #18 Re: The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant 
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    I received this PM today from somone on the boards. I thought I would post it, with the names changed to *** so that it is kept private. But I think I must be posted cause of its truth and possibility of what might happen if our Auto Industry collaspses.

    I would like to also add that this will be my last post on this thread. Obviously it runs deep for some and way deeper for others who are directly involved in this.

    I am sorry in a way I started this thread, but it was something on my mind and I felt it right to voice it, but now......I must reconsider and think twice before posting something like this again..... Sorry to anyone who I have offended or angered with this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by ***
    So when *** doesn't have a job anymore because there is no company to specify part specs so no one can make parts anymore...We can come live with you right? And *** can come live with you? and the other people I know who don't work for ford or gm directly but their companies would no longer exist because they supply the plants with parts....you'll support them too?
    Quote Originally Posted by ***


    Just checking so I have a ****ing backup plan.
    This was my reply to them. And I think it stands for anyone else who might have been hurt or angered at what I started.


    ***,

    I have been debating on how to respond this. First I was honestly shocked, well more hurt than shocked really, I know what *** and *** do for a living. Believe me, I am well aware of their situation. But to sit here and think that if we just keep throwing money into the sinking ship, that magically the money will absorb the water and stop the flooding is foolish. As I said in my initial post I SUPPORT some sort of bailout, but YES I also said that bankruptsy was another path that needs to be explored.

    If you think about it long and hard, I DO NOT WANT ANYONE, well except for the top brass, to lose their jobs. They have done nothing but ruin the Big 3. They are from a time well past, and they have yet to wake up and realize that. How do you think they are gonna spend that money? Sure to pay their workers, but it will also keep their BLOATED pay checks and private jets flying around the world. They have NO SENSE of respect for their workers or for the American people as a whole. They are only out to suit themselves.

    I do not know what *** makes, nor do I wish to know, that is private. But when you look at line workers or a person who just screws in lug nuts making 10 to 20 times what *** makes is ridiculous. ***’s job is just as important as theirs. IF NOT MORE! But does he see that kind of pay those workers are getting? I am doubting seriously he does. And I am sure he wishes he could. As would any other right thinking person.

    But there comes a time to realize when enough is enough. Have you ever looked at the Union as a whole? I don’t just mean in the auto industry, but the WHOLE union in the US. Time and time again they have priced themselves out of work. NOT because the company just wanted to jump overseas. Sure some have no doubt. But the unions priced themselves out of many markets. Look at the Steel Mills in the US? They are basically gone, except for a select few. We import more and more steel from OUTSIDE the US than we ever produce in country now. And that frankly is a SHAME!

    Why or how do you ask that happened? Well the unions wanted more and more until their pay was so far out of scale from what the rest of the world makes, it forced a lot of company’s to look at overseas production for their steel. Our steel products were far superior than that of other countries, but with the increasing pressure from Unions to want more and more instead of being happy with having a job they got greedy and they lost. WE as the US lost!!

    The very same thing is happening to the Auto Industry. The unions are wanting more and more and leaving a lot of the Big 3 little choices, but cut their work force to compensate the needs of the union demands, do you think that is fair? I mean how much do you think a person on the line who screws in lugs nuts should make? Do you think he should make more than ***? *** does a whole lot to provide service to his customers and company and than one guy on the line who screws in 25 lug nuts. I don’t care if the guy screwed in 1,000 lug nuts, it still does not equal to what *** does in the same industry.

    There are unfair gaps in pay in the auto industry. And those gaps NEED to be addressed. And the UAW is to blame for those gaps. Concessions need to be made and compremise needs to be implemented if the UAW and their associated Unions want to keep their jobs and keep the Big 3 alive and prosperous. The Big 3 need to do their part as well to help in those goals. But with the current hierarchy in place, that WILL NEVER HAPPEN!

    I know you probably think I don’t care. Well ***, I DO CARE! I care for ***, I care for you and *** and ANYONE else that is potentially affected by this crisis before us. But if you think just throwing more and more into something that is broke, it is not going to solve anything. And yes if there was space here YES I would house all of you all! But I am not paid big union money to afford a nice house or three or four cars. I am someone who works hard every day like you and *** and ***. I don’t have a union keeping my job safe or asking for more money when I think I deserve it. I just keep doing my job and I can only hope more pay will come with doing a good job. *** I know works his butt off too, and he should be paid better than what he is. YOU should be paid WAY MORE than what you are making given the job you do!

    But something has to be done, and just giving the Big 3 more money without some type of change in management is not going to help anything. It will only for another few months to stave off the inevitable. If the unions can change, and make themselves viable in the workforce, than things might work out, but if they bulk at the idea, than everything is lost. And that has nothing to do with me. You can thank ***’s union for putting him out of job. And I DON’T WISH THAT!!!!

    Thanks for taking the time to listen.

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  19. #19 Re: The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant 
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    Word.
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  20. #20 Re: The Big 3 Motor Exec Rant 
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    Well here's the deal. First, you shouldnt be shamed or feel bad for posting what you have even if that opinion has sensitivities that run deep. I hope you continue posting this sort of thing as I find many of your post very thought provoking. I dont always agree, but it makes me think, makes me evaluate my position and the information I use to make those stands. So while this subject may be touchy, march on, you have my support.

    Next, anyone that believes there isnt already going to be layoffs (if not already) in the auto industry is severely dilluted. I hear someone say if there is a 30% loss of sales, there's usually not far off a 30% loss in work force. Its a sad reality as we no longer live in the days of early IBM in which you were hired for life.

    Furthermore, it is a sad reality that the auto industry as a whole has done this to itself. While the workers will be the auto workers will be the uninteded consequence of any effort to streamline that business, they do have a voice in the direction that it takes since they are union and that voice has been used for little more that give me, give me, give me. Feeeeeeeeed Me as the movie line goes. Well that same voice that kept saying give me could have easily been used to say we need to do better, something needs to change, we see the writing on the wall and we want to take this in a direction that is going to promot job stability and company stability, not in a direction that I can get more and more and more.

    What I have NEVER understood with unions is that they go on strike, negotiate more money, better benefits and so on without regard as to where that money comes from. HELLOOOOO!! If you are paid more that means the company has to make more and that usually means they CHARGE more for their products. So YOU Mr. Union worker, now making more money are just simply going to shell it out the next time you buy that company's product or patron any establishment or service that supports that company. So what have you gained? Nothing more than the bragging right of saying you are making a billion dollars an hour to screw on a lug nut.

    THEN you turn around, go out into the world with this new inflated pay check and ask yourself 'Why can I buy so little, I just got a HUGE raise thanks to the union'. Well HELLO! someone has to pay for that and that someone is not only YOU but everyone else in the form of higher prices.

    The fact is that we as a society are becoming increasingly socialistic. We want everyone to make lots of money, to have the house on the hill and to get a share of the pie in the sky whether they have worked for it, earned it, etc. We are afraid to make the hard choices. And sadly, some are going to have to be made with regards to the automakers and sadly that means there will probably be some job loss. And those workers that have gotten use to making a billion dollars an hour for screwing on a lug nut are going to find cold hard life waiting for them because instead of socking money away, knowing the auto industry tends to be volitile, are going to have to go out and find new jobs with a lot less pay, but pay that is probably more in keeping with the work done.

    Now, Im not against anyone making a lot of money. If you are fortunate enough to have a job in which you are making way above the norm, hats off to ya. But to do that and continually neglect the future and planning and living within means is on you, not anyone else. Ive been laid off before. I know what its like. But thankfully, knowing I was making dang good money, I was putting money away too and I wasnt forever more trying to extend my standard of living. My first focus was to make sure I could support my current standard of living if something should ever happen, and than GOD I had done that.

    They have tried EXTREMELY hard to bring in the union where I work and I tell you now that if the efforts would have appeared to be heading to success you would have seen me on TV, heard me on the radio and anywhere else shouting to the top against the union. Part of the company that I work for is unionized and you can clearly see the difference in the union and non-union workers, work processes and so on.

    I want to work. I want to come in and have a sense I earned my pay. I dont want to be told I cant work because the 'union' decided to go on strike. I dont want the union speaking for me, I can do that on my own. I most certainly dont want them coming in and determining that we need more pay to the point that the company has to send jobs overseas to remain competitive.

    So while I wish no one ended up laid off and that everyone of the current workers at the automakers remained employed, the sad reality is that its likely not going to happen. But my wish for them is that they find other work, if that is what they want or need to do, but also think long and hard about their choice to give up their voice, their negotiating rights and other rights to the union that in turn used that to drive costs up that ultimately put the company they work for in the unfortunate position of having to lay them off.
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