What The Hell Went Through GM's Mind That Made Them Kill Pontiac

[Tank2001GT]

Fun Factoid

KBB and NADA(which most dealers use) have the 2008 G8 GT Listed at $23,000 used with 53500 miles
the 2008 Grand Prix GXP is listed at $17800 used..Suggested retail...with 53500 miles...these are rounded estimates..maybe no more than a couple hundred off..
I'm purposely adding the periods to make run on sentences the new thing of the future. I grew up a GM kid, dad and grandpa only EVER owned GM's, and had nearly every make and model as I grew up. I am more than aware of the flaws with those cars. I'm glad that you can spend time quoting stuff from GM's life story web page, makes that reading I just did almost the same as, I can't find a logical comparison. My opinions matter just as much as anyone else, they are not based solely on emotion, although seeing how you all think I had a "mudhole" stomped in my ass, is rather amusing. Its rare that I ever concede defeat in any battle of opinions, because rarely do I go to a gun fight with a knife, pardon the heavy cliche(pronounced Klee-shay for some of ya). He is something even better...a majority of the information I spouted off about came from a former employer of mine who has been in the car business...SELLING CHEVY...since 1967. He has met some of these high ranking officials. So again, my opinions may not be opinions at all, but rather fun filled facts to wrap your brain around. So go ahead, live behind your yahoo, and edmunds, msn, and TonyRobbinsRules.com, I will exit, but stage right, because I usually am..right......how ....fun...is...this....no....F7.....BLAH BLAH BLAH

[Hippo Machine]

what does GM have to compete with say a Hyundai GENESIS 5.0 R-Spec or BMW M5?

Those are CTS-V competition, no?

CTS-V is better anyway..

[RareGMFan]

Again, this is why you don't form opinions first, and look for evidence to support those opinions second, because when you do that, you tend to twist and skew the facts, or just cherry pick evidence that supports your opinion instead of allowing for the possibility that you might be wrong. Here's a prime example.

Fun factoid: Your factoids don't prove your point!

For starters, NADA and KBB require zip codes to see what cars are worth in YOUR area, which can vary GREATLY from region to region. On the other hand, the numbers I provided were NATIONAL AVERAGES. In any event, even IF someone was willing to pay anywhere near $18k for a GP, you're only proving my point with your comparison, because both the GP GXP and G8 GT retailed for about the same base MSRP new, yet the G8 is going for $5k more than the "oh so popular" GP. Also keep in mind that the original MSRPs I listed in my last post were for BASE models on these trim levels compared to the fully loaded figures you're using. I did not include the additional cost of navigation, leather, etc in my MSRPs. Calculate the cost of those features into the MSRPs, and you're still looking at about the same percentage loss in resale value.

Oh, BTW, guess what else NADA said! According to NADA, when I looked into the value of my McLaren TGP a couple years ago, my 21 year old GP was worth $9k!! A few thousand MORE than my '01 GTP! And no matter what mileage I put in, the $9k price wouldn't change. Now that's some serious accuracy right there! In reality, the most a really clean, lower mileage TGP went for at the time was $4k, MAYBE $5 if it was REALLY low miles, and extra clean.

Anyhow, even if we play by your NADA/KBB game, you will also have to look at what they say the used retail value is of the competitor cars because we're trying to access the "popularity" of the Pontiacs by seeing if they are holding their value as well as its competition. For my zip, a fully loaded (every option checked) '08 GXP retails for $17,300. '08 Camry XLE = $20500, '08 Accord EX = $19500. KBB: GXP = $17000, Camry XLE = 21800, Accord EX = 20500 (and unlike you, my numbers are all rounded down $50 at most, not "a couple hundred off"). Consider the fact that the GXP's original MSRP was higher than the competitors' cars (not to mention the GXP trim level was unique with its V8, for which the Camry and Accord had no competitors), and any way you slice it, the GP is getting its ass kicked in resale retention. Where's all that love for Pontiac to keep it popular and help it hold it's value??

He is something even better...a majority of the information I spouted off about came from a former employer of mine who has been in the car business...SELLING CHEVY...since 1967. He has met some of these high ranking officials.

Ahhhhh, you can stop right there. I understand now where all your ill-advised opinions came from (though I called hearsay way back in the beginning of all this). This explains why you've had no actual, definitive evidence or arguments to refute the points made in this thread. If I've developed an "anti-American" reputation the last couple years, it's because of people like you. You are the quintessential American. One who doesn't possess much common knowledge, lacks critical thinking and analytical skills, yet doesn't hesitate to jump into a discussion on almost any subject at any given time with a very strong opinion based on an article or 2 s/he read here, or an "expert" or 2 s/he talked to there, etc. These tiny bits of information somehow make the average American feel that they now have enough expertise on a subject to form these strong opinions. And worse yet, despite there being no foundation for these opinions, no matter how laughable those opinions are to people who ARE well versed and educated in the subject, they are quite arrogant about it, even in the face of irrefutable evidence that they have no clue what they're talking about. Americans like you who try to pass off statements of wishful thinking based on selfish desires as "logical opinions", instead of actually USING logic, are the reason why we're now so hated all over the world, and why this once great nation is on the brink of eminent collapse. Congratulations!

You may rarely go to a gun fight with a knife, but you've CLEARLY shown up at this battle of wits unarmed.

[z3r0]

You spelt cliché wrong

And why would gm get rid of their name brand gmc

On the other hand lets ditch Chevy to keep pontiac

[stealthee]

I would venture to say that less than 5% of this very forum bought their car new from Pontiac/GM. That means that more than 95% of this forum did nothing to help GM keep Pontiac alive.

Used car sales do NOT have anything to do with keeping a car company afloat. Let's use an analogy here to help the slow-witted better comprehend.

Let's say you produce a line of tires. In that line of tires you have brand name A, B, C, D, E, and F.

Brand A and B are almost identical, but both sell strong. Brand C doesn't sell well locally, but sells like hot cakes in Canada. Brand E and F sell so slow that it starts to hurt your bottom dollar. If you continue to produce brand E and F its going to force you to close down, so you do the smart thing and discontinue E and F and keep your business and all your employees going.

A few years go by and a few guys on the internet are mad and think you should have stopped producing brand B, and continued brand F, even though brand B was one of your top sellers and helped keep your doors open in the first place. They claim they are the best and the line is popular, but even in all their b!tching, they show they didn't even buy theirs new, but got them off a car at a junkyard, so their money never even helped keep brand F going in the first place.

[Pure2sin]

Profit

End/

[Tank2001GT]

So you are Anti-American? Does that mean you are a Ford Loving Nazi? And what the hell brought on the comparison to Honda and Toyota..we are talking about GM, and the last time I checked they don't own any of those foreign car companies. I have went back and re-read RareGMFan's last post several times, I think I peed a little I was laughing so hard. Here's what you fail to realize buddy, I would trust the opinion of someone who has owned a Chevy/GMC/and at one time Pontiac dealership since 1967, and lets not to mention a Saturn dealership 3 years before GM killed that lineup as well. over you any day. To this very day, HE still thinks axing Pontiac was a bad idea, and he was the one who told me that when GM execs came to the dealership to discuss it with him a year before they did it, regardless of the numbers, he wished that they would have retooled the line up, came back in 2014 with products that were gonna challenge all the other competitors. Truth, GM wasted opportunities to keep themselves out of the position they were forced in to, they should have realized that because of bad management ideas. The only point I was trying to get across was that I wish that that Pontiac arrow was still on the front of the dealership I drive past frequently. If I were to sum up all the absolute BS that was let out on these 4 pages of web forum. Did I let my passion for Pontiac get out..yeah, why wouldn't it. One more thing, yeah KBB and NADA require zip codes to get retail numbers for my area, but if that's where I live, would Edmunds be the end all be all of car values in my area? Which to be honest here, you are the first person I have EVER talked(or in this case) typed to that quoted Edmunds, or Yahoo on car prices. Edmunds maybe..but Yahoo, really? That's like taking advice on how NOT to be a terrorist from Osama Bin Laden. Furthermore..I apologize to our German contingency for forgetting the umlaut..my bad. I feel like the bickering that went on in this thread was kinda like dealing with my dad, thought that he knows everything, but eventually realized he just might be full of ****, and laughed it off, find your sense of humor, or irony, whichever happens first.

P.S. Nice use of the word hyperbole, that word of the day dictionary stealthee sent ya is working...

[Tank2001GT]

BAH

[redlinepontiac]

when the gp dies ill buy a new regal and be happy.


ill own my old pontiac for aslong as possible

[burgundybullet]

IN REFERENCE TO PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE THREAD

[blueguy]

So you are Anti-American? Does that mean you are a Ford Loving Nazi? And what the hell brought on the comparison to Honda and Toyota..we are talking about GM, and the last time I checked they don't own any of those foreign car companies. I have went back and re-read RareGMFan's last post several times, I think I peed a little I was laughing so hard. Here's what you fail to realize buddy, I would trust the opinion of someone who has owned a Chevy/GMC/and at one time Pontiac dealership since 1967, and lets not to mention a Saturn dealership 3 years before GM killed that lineup as well. over you any day. To this very day, HE still thinks axing Pontiac was a bad idea, and he was the one who told me that when GM execs came to the dealership to discuss it with him a year before they did it, regardless of the numbers, he wished that they would have retooled the line up, came back in 2014 with products that were gonna challenge all the other competitors. Truth, GM wasted opportunities to keep themselves out of the position they were forced in to, they should have realized that because of bad management ideas. The only point I was trying to get across was that I wish that that Pontiac arrow was still on the front of the dealership I drive past frequently. If I were to sum up all the absolute BS that was let out on these 4 pages of web forum. Did I let my passion for Pontiac get out..yeah, why wouldn't it. One more thing, yeah KBB and NADA require zip codes to get retail numbers for my area, but if that's where I live, would Edmunds be the end all be all of car values in my area? Which to be honest here, you are the first person I have EVER talked(or in this case) typed to that quoted Edmunds, or Yahoo on car prices. Edmunds maybe..but Yahoo, really? That's like taking advice on how NOT to be a terrorist from Osama Bin Laden. Furthermore..I apologize to our German contingency for forgetting the umlaut..my bad. I feel like the bickering that went on in this thread was kinda like dealing with my dad, thought that he knows everything, but eventually realized he just might be full of ****, and laughed it off, find your sense of humor, or irony, whichever happens first.

P.S. Nice use of the word hyperbole, that word of the day dictionary stealthee sent ya is working...

[RareGMFan]

P.S. Nice use of the word hyperbole, that word of the day dictionary stealthee sent ya is working...

....please don't tell me you needed to look that word up. It's called having a vocabulary beyond 5th grade English. Comes naturally for those of us that prefer reading to being retards. Of course, for someone who has so much trouble putting together a coherent, grammatically correct sentence with words used in the proper context, I can understand why it strikes you as "a big college word!!".

So you are Anti-American? Does that mean you are a Ford Loving Nazi?

And what the hell brought on the comparison to Honda and Toyota..we are talking about GM, and the last time I checked they don't own any of those foreign car companies.

...are your reading comprehension skills seriously this low, or are you trying to divert attention away from the fact that your claims have been exposed for being baseless? Try to keep up with the conversation. You claimed the '04 - '08 GPs are more popular than ever. I stated an easy way to refute that claim is to look at the resale value of the GP vs. its competitors, because it is a good benchmark to determine how desirable/popular a car is. The stats on ANY website, including your "preferred" sources of KBB and NADA, clearly show that the last GP, which is only 4 years old, has lost more than 50% of its original MSRP. On the other hand, its competitors have only lost about 40%, and actually sell for higher, clearly indicating that even today, the mass public prefers to buy an import competitor over Pontiac.

Want to keep it in the GM family? Fine. You still loose. The 2008 Impala SS, which had an original MSRP of almost exactly the same as the GXP, currently retails for (rounding DOWN the differences): Edmunds $1700, KBB $2400, and NADA $1200 MORE than the GP. Despite being an equally low quality car, thus why the differences in values aren't huge, and still a massive loss from the MSRP, it STILL holds slightly better value than the Pontiacs. This is because Chevy has much bigger name recognition than any other brand of GM. Funny, isn't it? Even when you try to make a point by attempting to discredit my evidence while presenting your own, when analyzed, your own evidence ends up DISPROVING your claims.

Now on to the bit that matters. Pontiac and Buick are much closer in name recognition, as Olds also used to be, thus similar new sales figures and resale values in the US. This made deciding between Buick and Pontiac for the axe a virtual toss-up based on US sales. The tie breaker was the fact that Buick sells so well in several former communist countries (2:1 in China alone). GM came to this solution with an emotionally difficult, but mathematically plain and simple equation. The only reason you refuse to see this, or are trying to distort and complicate a very easy equation is because your emotions towards Pontiac are clouding your judgement.

Here's what you fail to realize buddy, I would trust the opinion of someone who has owned a Chevy/GMC/and at one time Pontiac dealership since 1967, and lets not to mention a Saturn dealership 3 years before GM killed that lineup as well. over you any day.

Why would the mere act of someone owning a business automatically give any more credence to a person's opinions about how the companies he deals goods for should be run? In fact, if anything, your next sentence HURTS his credibility.

To this very day, HE still thinks axing Pontiac was a bad idea, and he was the one who told me that when GM execs came to the dealership to discuss it with him a year before they did it, regardless of the numbers, he wished that they would have retooled the line up, came back in 2014 with products that were gonna challenge all the other competitors.

.....so what exactly is it that you're "trusting" about this guy's opinion? His FEELING that regardless of the numbers, they should have kept Pontiac around? How does that make any sense, or lend any evidence or validity to your argument? All you're doing is quoting someone who's doing the same exact thing as you: Forming an opinion that completely contradicts the evidence (by his own admission), and is solely based on emotion/feeling. Finding someone that agrees with your same baseless opinion is not EVIDENCE for your opinion. Neither of you have given a single legitimate, logical answer or explanation as to WHY it should have been kept around. You've simply said "they just should have kept them around. Just....shoulda' done something, and kept them around".

And why "retool" to sell a 3rd version of the same cars they already offer through Chevy and Buick? The set up they have now is perfect, and IMO, is the way it should have been to start with. Chevy = cheaper/entry level GMs that can be fairly nicely equipped if the buyer desires so, Buick = slightly upper scale versions of those cars with more/better amenities, and Caddy = luxury/high-end. Where would this "retooled" Pontiac fit into this equation? And what guarantee do you have that they would sell? What if after dumping those millions upon millions of dollars into "retooling" the brand, it bombed again anyway? Why take that kind of risk and jeopardize the entire company when they already have an enormous uphill battle just trying to erase the general public's perception of the divisions they still have?

Truth, GM wasted opportunities to keep themselves out of the position they were forced in to, they should have realized that because of bad management ideas.

There is no argument that. There is an endless stream of stupid things GM did over the last few decades to put themselves in this situation, the biggest of which was letting themselves get handcuffed financially for years (and many years to come) by the UAW, followed closely behind by the giving of the final say on every aspect of production to a bunch of MBAs who don't know jack sh*t about cars, and more than half of whom don't even DRIVE GMs themselves. Couple that with all the little things like poor marketing and ad campaigns, or going from leaders, to falling behind on features and amenities, etc, and you have the recipe for this current disaster. If you REALLY want to begin to understand the inner workings of GM, and why things fell apart, I highly suggest you pick up Bob Lutz' book "Car Guys vs. Bean Counters: The Battle for the Soul of American Business". EXCELLENT book with tons of info about how things were structured at GM Corp.

The only point I was trying to get across was that I wish that that Pontiac arrow was still on the front of the dealership I drive past frequently.

No. See, if that WERE the point you were trying to make, everyone would have been fine with it. Just about all of us feel the same. We all have some degree of passion for the brand. Otherwise, we wouldn't be here. Some will miss the brand more than others, but no one was HAPPY to see it go. I haven't been to a Chicago Auto Show the last few years because, as much as I love cars, and I wouldn't mind seeing the other displays, it's not the same without Pontiac there. It's the first display I'd run up to every year when I'd go. I still remember taking a ton of pics when the first prototype of the G8 was introduced with the much nicer (IMO) 2-tone interior. I had been following the car a couple years prior to that, so I was in awe when I finally got to see the US version that we'd be getting. The point is we all miss the brand, and wouldn't have had an issue if that was your only point.

However, the point you were ACTUALLY trying to make is that it's STUPID from a business standpoint that they got rid of the brand, which is indubitably wrong. Yes, it sucks that it got to this point. Yes, they made a lot of stupid decisions along the way to allow it to happen, and yes, had things been handled differently, they might still be around. Unfortunately, it happened, and there's nothing that can/could be done to change that. What they had to focus on was how to deal with the situation as it sat. What they did was the only logical thing they COULD do. Cut their losses while they could by letting Pontiac go, and retool/restructure the brands they had left. Is it financially stupid that Pontiac is gone? No. What you SHOULD have said all along is that it SUCKS Pontiac is gone. There's a big difference.

[Pure2sin]

You have too much time on your hands.

[Tank2001GT]

2 things...lose...not loose
Way too much time on your hands
For an individual dealer, new pontiacs sold well for him, reason he never liked the idea
Oh well shtuff happens...get over this thread, move forward..loose...haha..grammar eludes even the most collegiate mind

[Tank2001GT]

One more question..is Holden Canadian or Australian?

[txslow6]

Holden is Aus. and holy **** this thread is full of pointless arguing. Pontiac's dead it's not coming back no matter how much people beat a dead horse.

[Tank2001GT]

Fiat came to america several years ago with junk cars, and they are now making a resurgence in the sub-compact market, I would call that a re-tool in the "American market." Not that I am saying by any means that Pontiac should come back and compete with the Smart Car, or Fiat. And nothing that chevy makes besides the Aveo, I would consider cheap by any standards. I can buy a brand new Dodge Ram, with Hemi for less than $25,000, look up the Dodge express line, Regular cab, short bed. Dodge wanted to make their trucks accessible to blue collar workers, Chevy cars are still between $25-30,000 new, how are they affordable? Cadillac between $40-100,000. Hence, the 2012 Pontiac Grand Prix, restyled..$20,000 for a well equipped. With Chevy becoming quickly focused on selling cars that shut off the motor at a dead stop, like the Buick Regal, and Chevy Malibu, all that extra annoyance is costly. All the advertising on TV for the Volt, it's crazy, those type of cars that have been around in Europe for several years getting 70 mpg's, and we as Americans get giddy over 37? How skewed is the overall view?

One more argument I would like to see refuted...GM only kept GMC around because they can rebadge the Silverado line for little overhead making them HUGELY profitable. That's the only reason GMC outsold any of the other GM lines besides Chevy. So in essence, GMC was a Chevy with a false cover, therefore the numbers provided by GMC, should be viewed as Chevy profit. They only have 2 other models..Terrain, and Acadia. Terrain replaced the Envoy, because it had to be done, and Acadia is an Enclave, Traverse, and Outlook. So essentially, GMC has 1 semi-original product line? Made it look nothing like the Equinox, which the Equinox got such bad reviews because of poor gas mileage, and crappy engineering, that's the only original looking thing GMC has going. I'm incredibly unimpressed. It sucks Pontiac is gone, Pontiac Terrain looks better...Pontiac Acadia

wait, I forgot the Yukon/Tahoe, again, nothing original. The Denali is an Escalade, holy poop on a stick that's original

[Pure2sin]

You guys should become authors. lol

[Tank2001GT]

I gave it some thought..lol

[Big Dave]

Who was the first guy to look at a cow and say "That makes me thirsty!" I mean really! How does one discover milk??