Don't jump on that bandwagon, 160WHP, N/A guy.Originally Posted by nos4blood70
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10-28-2014
Don't jump on that bandwagon, 160WHP, N/A guy.
10-28-2014
My bad 500whp N/A guy. Might make more financial sense to tune AFTER you put some mods on no? Instead of doing that whole thing twice? After all, I'm only going off of the logical progression outlined in your own modding sticky..
10-28-2014
Don't be jealous of my exhaust gains.
They're dyno proven.
There is logical progression, but there are also things to be addressed from the get go, especially trans settings and fan turn-on points. If you care to clean up the MAF curve and anything else, why not? I wouldn't pay for it twice, no. But if you know someone or are doing the tuning yourself, that's a no brainer, skippy.
10-28-2014
I did provide them. First off i told you i dont have a computer and i pointed you to another thread that addresses them directly.
10-28-2014
One point thats funny is you say it has a bad maf curve stock? What exactly does it matter when you fix it? Different ltft numbers? Lol
10-28-2014
No you didn't, that post looked like it was copied out of a tuning manual, it specifically addresses nothing of our discussion here. And I have no idea why you'd need a "computer" to address the specific items that I listed in my post. I'm happy to engage in reasonable tuning discussions and counterpoints but this is just nonsense.
For the benefit of everyone else, those items that I addressed in my post are real tangible items, I'll readdress them briefly and why its a fix:
#1 - Referencing a 2003 Regal GS stock file as an example, at heavy throttle, the stock PCM will target an AFR of 12.13 at 3200rpm. By 5600rpm, the AFR command richens up to a more appropriate 11.4. Once the shift into 2nd gear completes, it goes back to between 12.13 and 11.9. In my experience, these AFRs are improper targets even on a stock 3800SC. By aiming for a richer flat AFR at WOT that doesn't change with rpm, torque is improved in the midrange around the peak torque rpm, KR is reduced which means the engine is safer and reduced KR improves horsepower and performance
#2 - Even stock 3800s have chronic burst knock issues. Burst knock is when engine knock and subsequent KR spikes with sudden large throttle input. There are fuel commands set up like pump shots in a carb setup. Even with a stock pulley, these can be adjusted to reduce burst knock. This improves performance and improves engine safety
#3 - This is a "secret" of mine, I won't elaborate the fix, I'll simply describe the symptom. When you accelerate at around 1/3 throttle, timing advance will drop as engine load increases, which is normal, but as you increase throttle further something will happen and you'll see the timing advance come back up again, without any change in engine rpm and a minor increase in load. This sudden timing change causes burst KR, it also creates a soft spot in acceleration before you trigger this increase.
#4 - When you have a knock event and subsequent KR, then leave the knock event, the KR is reduced to bring timing back to full at the recovery rate. Stock programming allows for roughly 1/2 degree of timing advance to be added every second while the engine is under load. By allowing a faster recovery rate, performance is restored more quickly. Given the slow recovery rates and the stock PCMs tendancy to have burst KR, this is a problem area for performance. This doesn't impact engine safety as long as an appropriate recovery rate is chosen.
#5 - Anyone who's tuned multiple years and platforms with similar mods will have noticed the consistent changes that need to be made to the fuel trims. This is partly VE and partly MAF calibration. These changes are made proactively in my tuning, because chances are they'll be needed
$6 - I've seen people blow their engines when hitting abuse or traction control modes under hard acceleration which cut fuel injectors and aim for very lean AFRs. We can debate about how no fuel should equal no combustion and no heat but even still, this is what is. The jolting of the injector cut is also hard on the bearings in the motor. It simply makes sense to reprogram these controls to avoid such hard extreme actions taken by the PCM just to control wheel spin or max power outputs.
#7 - This is more of a Bonneville/Regal item but everyone who's hit 3rd gear knows what happens to the boost.
Everything else is pretty self explanatory. I have to get back to work.
As for the wideband, again I've done testing, I know what the difference in the readings are and I know what to aim for when using a wideband in the tailpipe. I assure you its much more accurate than using a crystal ball to tune the AFR. Whenever a customer has a wideband installed in their vehicle pre cat I'll use it as well, and its again another verification of what I'm looking for.
10-28-2014
Correct.
10-28-2014
Am I the only one scratching my head, trying to figure out how to tune without a computer?
10-28-2014
Yea, with you on that one, while dh has typed a couple of paragraphs in bold it does nothing to backup his usual claims. That's what we want to know. Most people who know how to google can figure out the basic points that need to be addressed in a 3800 tune.its the specifics from dh were curious about
10-28-2014
There ya go DH a list of things you can learn to tune for your non-existent visitors to your mom's basement.
Or you could prove yourself in the thread you made your claims in, not the copy and paste thread you started to show your brilliance.
I'm not saying you can't tune but this guy can, has proven his work in multiple ways and over many years. Maybe tuning isn't a big mystery to you or tuning in general but for the rest of us it's the best we are gonna find. Proven, tested and Re-proven and tested.
And for 98vet, my bike is fricken awesome, your SN not so much.
10-28-2014
that post looked like it was copied out of a tuning manual
--sorry to say it wasnt... try again next time hater
it specifically addresses nothing of our discussion here.
-- It specifically addresses everything here, you obviously didnt read it.
And I have no idea why you'd need a "computer" to address the specific items that I listed in my post. I'm happy to engage in reasonable tuning discussions and counterpoints but this is just nonsense.
--sorry I am not a bad ass with my cell phone.
For the benefit of everyone else, those items that I addressed in my post are real tangible items, I'll readdress them briefly and why its a fix:
#1 - Referencing a 2003 Regal GS stock file as an example, at heavy throttle, the stock PCM will target an AFR of 12.13 at 3200rpm. By 5600rpm, the AFR command richens up to a more appropriate 11.4. Once the shift into 2nd gear completes, it goes back to between 12.13 and 11.9. In my experience, these AFRs are improper targets even on a stock 3800SC. By aiming for a richer flat AFR at WOT that doesn't change with rpm, torque is improved in the midrange around the peak torque rpm, KR is reduced which means the engine is safer and reduced KR improves horsepower and performance
-- This is all completely opinion. Also ive never found a stock GTP running this lean via a wideband ever. Also time plays a large factor in factory PE so your PE targets are completely dumb. Also 12.2 is IDEAL for maximum power on a stock car. You cant use "overall horsepower and performance" as a number to say its better by xxx%... it makes xx more power or xx more "performance". This all assumes your stock car is knocking, which would be a mechanical issue.
#2 - Even stock 3800s have chronic burst knock issues. Burst knock is when engine knock and subsequent KR spikes with sudden large throttle input. There are fuel commands set up like pump shots in a carb setup. Even with a stock pulley, these can be adjusted to reduce burst knock. This improves performance and improves engine safety
-- Opinion. I've never found it unless the car was broken. AE settings are very robust stock.
#3 - This is a "secret" of mine, I won't elaborate the fix, I'll simply describe the symptom. When you accelerate at around 1/3 throttle, timing advance will drop as engine load increases, which is normal, but as you increase throttle further something will happen and you'll see the timing advance come back up again, without any change in engine rpm and a minor increase in load. This sudden timing change causes burst KR, it also creates a soft spot in acceleration before you trigger this increase.
-- Opinion. If this exists it never bothered me, none of your cars you've tuned have even scratched any of my records.
#4 - When you have a knock event and subsequent KR, then leave the knock event, the KR is reduced to bring timing back to full at the recovery rate. Stock programming allows for roughly 1/2 degree of timing advance to be added every second while the engine is under load. By allowing a faster recovery rate, performance is restored more quickly. Given the slow recovery rates and the stock PCMs tendancy to have burst KR, this is a problem area for performance. This doesn't impact engine safety as long as an appropriate recovery rate is chosen.
--Disabling safety. Ok you got me, you are making the car ignore knock faster.... Smart? no. More power? Yes. (reference tuning guide I WROTE)
#5 - Anyone who's tuned multiple years and platforms with similar mods will have noticed the consistent changes that need to be made to the fuel trims. This is partly VE and partly MAF calibration. These changes are made proactively in my tuning, because chances are they'll be needed
-- LOL VE tables are not used, at all, ever, go directly to jail. Maf sensor calibrations can be up to 32% completely wrong and the car will run IDENTICAL to one that is 32% the other direction... because there is a cool thing called closed loop managing your fueling many times a second via the o2 sensor anyway. Might want to read my guide for some information on that. (reference tuning guide I WROTE)
$6 - I've seen people blow their engines when hitting abuse or traction control modes under hard acceleration which cut fuel injectors and aim for very lean AFRs. We can debate about how no fuel should equal no combustion and no heat but even still, this is what is. The jolting of the injector cut is also hard on the bearings in the motor. It simply makes sense to reprogram these controls to avoid such hard extreme actions taken by the PCM just to control wheel spin or max power outputs.
-- Yep, lets take off the factory failsafes. Who needs those? (reference tuning guide I WROTE)
#7 - This is more of a Bonneville/Regal item but everyone who's hit 3rd gear knows what happens to the boost.
-- Yep, lets take off the factory failsafes. Who needs those?(reference tuning guide I WROTE)
Everything else is pretty self explanatory. I have to get back to work.
As for the wideband, again I've done testing, I know what the difference in the readings are and I know what to aim for when using a wideband in the tailpipe.
--LOL good for you "you know what to look for"
--I honestly never thought you would be stupid enough to call out a guy that has more experience, more credentials and fast cars to show for it all to just inflate your ego at the cost of scamming more people out of their money. The fact that you said you are tuning VE tables is really a stark testament to how clueless you really are on this. I really used to have no issue with you before but you went well out of your way to embarrass yourself with this one.
10-28-2014
Yes, what AFR makes the most horsepower in my opinion is based on what makes the most horsepower in reality. Running 12.2 AFR may be theoretically the right number, however put most Supercharged 3800s on a dyno, run then at different AFRs, and you'll find very few that make the most power at 12.2 due to spark knock.#1 - Referencing a 2003 Regal GS stock file as an example, at heavy throttle, the stock PCM will target an AFR of 12.13 at 3200rpm. By 5600rpm, the AFR command richens up to a more appropriate 11.4. Once the shift into 2nd gear completes, it goes back to between 12.13 and 11.9. In my experience, these AFRs are improper targets even on a stock 3800SC. By aiming for a richer flat AFR at WOT that doesn't change with rpm, torque is improved in the midrange around the peak torque rpm, KR is reduced which means the engine is safer and reduced KR improves horsepower and performance
-- This is all completely opinion. Also ive never found a stock GTP running this lean via a wideband ever. Also time plays a large factor in factory PE so your PE targets are completely dumb. Also 12.2 is IDEAL for maximum power on a stock car. You cant use "overall horsepower and performance" as a number to say its better by xxx%... it makes xx more power or xx more "performance". This all assumes your stock car is knocking, which would be a mechanical issue.
Not opinion, reality. I'm able to tune out a lot of real KR during throttle transitions, and that improve acceleration. "Very robust" is your opinion#2 - Even stock 3800s have chronic burst knock issues. Burst knock is when engine knock and subsequent KR spikes with sudden large throttle input. There are fuel commands set up like pump shots in a carb setup. Even with a stock pulley, these can be adjusted to reduce burst knock. This improves performance and improves engine safety
-- Opinion. I've never found it unless the car was broken. AE settings are very robust stock.
Again, not opinion, reality. Whatever records you have have nothing to do with this point.#3 - This is a "secret" of mine, I won't elaborate the fix, I'll simply describe the symptom. When you accelerate at around 1/3 throttle, timing advance will drop as engine load increases, which is normal, but as you increase throttle further something will happen and you'll see the timing advance come back up again, without any change in engine rpm and a minor increase in load. This sudden timing change causes burst KR, it also creates a soft spot in acceleration before you trigger this increase.
-- Opinion. If this exists it never bothered me, none of your cars you've tuned have even scratched any of my records.
Knock recovery rates has nothing to do with telling the PCM to ignore engine knock. KR is reduced when an engine knock event is no longer there or less severe. If the knock event is still occuring, the KR amount will hold.#4 - When you have a knock event and subsequent KR, then leave the knock event, the KR is reduced to bring timing back to full at the recovery rate. Stock programming allows for roughly 1/2 degree of timing advance to be added every second while the engine is under load. By allowing a faster recovery rate, performance is restored more quickly. Given the slow recovery rates and the stock PCMs tendancy to have burst KR, this is a problem area for performance. This doesn't impact engine safety as long as an appropriate recovery rate is chosen.
--Disabling safety. Ok you got me, you are making the car ignore knock faster.... Smart? no. More power? Yes. (reference tuning guide I WROTE)
The VE table is used and is mapped out based on engine vacuum which requires MAP sensor readings. Airmass calculations are blended from both the VE table and the MAF table at part throttle. Beyond I believe it's 3500rpm, it references MAF only readings.#5 - Anyone who's tuned multiple years and platforms with similar mods will have noticed the consistent changes that need to be made to the fuel trims. This is partly VE and partly MAF calibration. These changes are made proactively in my tuning, because chances are they'll be needed
-- LOL VE tables are not used, at all, ever, go directly to jail. Maf sensor calibrations can be up to 32% completely wrong and the car will run IDENTICAL to one that is 32% the other direction... because there is a cool thing called closed loop managing your fueling many times a second via the o2 sensor anyway. Might want to read my guide for some information on that. (reference tuning guide I WROTE)
Also, if you skew the MAF table 32%, it will only run the same as the non-skewed MAF in closed loop if the fuel trims have room to make adjustment. The LT fuel trims and ST fuel trims only have a certain % to adjust the fuel calculations if the O2 sensor shows improper stoich. Beyond that range of adjustment, the vehicle will indeed run rich or lean.
If you see a LT fuel trim at idle of 12% for example, you're saying it's "in spec" and technically you're correct that that % falls within the maximum adjustment range of the trims, but a good tuner will not accept that as ideal, it's far too easy and proper to make it closer to 0%. Closer to 0% means the computer doesn't need to make continual adjustments to create a proper stoich part throttle.
Correct, because if you require traction control to intervene to that extent in order to maintain control of your vehicle, then perhaps you shouldn't drive a vehicle with so much horsepower. I never said that I disable traction control, I simply change its implimentation behaviour. Abuse modes typically engage during big burnouts, this would be a very deliberate act by the driver, they should know the risks. Other abuse modes activate once you make too much horsepower, they're power limiters, they need to be recalibrated.$6 - I've seen people blow their engines when hitting abuse or traction control modes under hard acceleration which cut fuel injectors and aim for very lean AFRs. We can debate about how no fuel should equal no combustion and no heat but even still, this is what is. The jolting of the injector cut is also hard on the bearings in the motor. It simply makes sense to reprogram these controls to avoid such hard extreme actions taken by the PCM just to control wheel spin or max power outputs.
-- Yep, lets take off the factory failsafes. Who needs those? (reference tuning guide I WROTE)
Now you're just being silly. These vehicles can't even complete a 1/4 mile run without their boost dropping to 3psi due to the boost bypass valve opening. Whatever the reasoning for this, it makes absolute 100% sense to correct this when you want to improve performance.#7 - This is more of a Bonneville/Regal item but everyone who's hit 3rd gear knows what happens to the boost.
-- Yep, lets take off the factory failsafes. Who needs those?(reference tuning guide I WROTE)
Yes, I know how to use my equipment to achieve correct results, good for me!As for the wideband, again I've done testing, I know what the difference in the readings are and I know what to aim for when using a wideband in the tailpipe.
--LOL good for you "you know what to look for"
You chose to attack my credibility in this thread, that's why I replied.--I honestly never thought you would be stupid enough to call out a guy that has more experience, more credentials and fast cars to show for it all to just inflate your ego at the cost of scamming more people out of their money. The fact that you said you are tuning VE tables is really a stark testament to how clueless you really are on this. I really used to have no issue with you before but you went well out of your way to embarrass yourself with this one.
It was also a great platform to explain why indeed I can offer a tune that improves performance on even a stock GTP.
10-29-2014
--I honestly never thought you would be stupid enough to call out a guy that has more experience, more credentials and fast cars
Well lets see the resumé and creds, show them fast cars cause all anyone here knows is your the guy with the meaningless post and BS arguments.
In most forums attacking a supporting vendor doesn't go very well, and if your so great maybe you should sign up and start peddling your services for mega cheap prices since your so sure it's all a scam.
I guess if everyone could tune their own car, we wouldn't need either of you, but most of us can't. Ask around, see how many threads started by happy customers, how many forums Will advertises on and then check your own list of achievements cause nobody knows who you are, other than "that guy" on GPF.
Honestly I don't even care what you can, could or might have done. But I've met will Will, had him to my shop, had countless happy members come to the tune days we've had and never had anyone go home mad at him. He stand by his work, goes out of his way to make people happy and helps them with the mods they put into their cars.
I could learn to tune my own car and be great like you, but like a lot of us knowing what not to do is worth the little bit of coin we trade off to Will for his experience and knowledge.
10-29-2014
As the initiator of the this post I must first apologies to Will as he has done Tuning for myself and many other satisfied customers all over North America and after years of hard work, dedication and professionalism he has earned my respect to being a Tuning God, my initial intent was to canvass for folks in Western Canada who would be interested in contacting to set up a Tuning day here on the Lower Mainland not get into a pissing match regarding egos!
Those who are seriously interestet in getting their vehicle in car tuned please contact with a firm committmet as we a looking at March 2015, please do not provide negative feed back on his reputation which appears unfounded and is not relevant if you are not joining!
10-29-2014
I was very interested in getting an in-car tune from Will but I googled his new location and he has moved about 3k miles away from me. Damn lol
10-29-2014
This has always been the issue since day one.
Use big words and simplistic internet tuning knowledge yanked from say: Tuning Forums (Do those exist? lol, sarcasm, yay.)
All these replys, but there isn't ever any hard evidence...other than...it doesn't work. You're wrong. The end.
10-29-2014
That thread is an original work of mine compiling elementary ecu construction and concepts. Its not a copy paste.
10-29-2014
And for the record, any chat can be pulled. Pretty far back I might add.
So; enjoy.
10-29-2014
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