Weight Loss or Weight Gain Thread "2012"

[pe4me]

Nice thread, not sure if this made it on here yet but it is a sometimes easily overlooked thing to consider. Depending on what body type and to what degree, it can really effect your maintenance and normal diet.
I think the key in all this is consistency, all the programs will work (insanity, p90x) but it comes down to how bad the individual wants it.
Having seen everything come and go in the 15 years I have been in/around the gym, it is the people who are dedicated and truly change their behavior that net the long term results.
Calculator is spot on...I feel scrawny at 6-2 205 and I am suppose to weigh 185-190. I have a hard time eating 2000 calories some days...especially when eating healthy. Big ole shake is the key. Unless it was league night then 1000 from beer

[SlowNA06]

Nice thread, not sure if this made it on here yet but it is a sometimes easily overlooked thing to consider.

It's best overlooked because somatotyping is useless. And that author clearly lacks a library card. The bottom line is that everyone needs to bust their tail in the gym and the dinner table.

If you're some kind of masochist and want to actually learn about somatotyping without just catching bits and pieces about it at the end of a mental-masturbatory fitness rag grapevine read the book. Just ignore the psychology part... the community has pretty much ripped the guy to shreds over how wrong it is.

[pe4me]

[QUOTEThe bottom line is that everyone needs to bust their tail in the gym and the dinner table./QUOTE]

I dont think its useless, there are more politically correct, scientific ways to identify genetics but if the purpose is to simplify the body types I think you could make a strong case for the skinny-muscular-husky genes floating around. Obviously there is more to it but each work out if designed correctly SHOULD vary significantly if the goal is the same.
Allow me to oversimplify my point: Let's say the goal is to have a toned beach body, not full on musclehead but a solid build.

Scawny guy-has to push as much weight as safely possible using way less reps. He can get away with eating ANYTHING = hopefully protein and tons of calories, bonus if healthy but NOT necessary to "weight watch"- its the opposite because of factors that lead to stereotypes
{this is more like powerlifter guy/P90x?=sometimes plateau and cant put on the extra 10 pounds of muscle (me)} It would be silly to insanity, long high intensity...if the GOAL is to put on muscle. He burns calories looking at cupcakes and ice cream.

Naturally lucky muscular guy- gets a choice in the weight room but in sticking to goal he should keep reps around 10, eat within normal spectrum plus gets to eat as much protein as he can afford (p90x, do what ever I want in the gym guy) I grew up with these guys.

Husky guy- needs to keep reps high, get as much range of motion as possible and lower weight so failer is reached at higher reps. + cardio for max burn. Stick to protienish a normal "diet" cutting out much of what the other guys can eat without worry. (insanity, aerobics guy)

It's classic, big guy not able to get definition or loose his waste = stop doing squats and bench presses, eating 30 wings with 24 beers...google "plank." These big guys that "figure it out" are pro athletes or freaks when they decide to put it all together.
Muscle guy, looked good since 8th grade, had a decent set of pipes back then and still does, didnt have to work or work real hard. After 30, he let himself go, joins the gym and WORKS at it and sees results in half the time scrawny buddy and big guy do. (assuming equal efforts have been put forth)
How could I forget about belly guy, could be any body type really. Well we all know him and his story which is either a feel good story that stumbled on a thread like this, surrounded himself with positive influences or he is a true success story- "busted it the gym and decided to eat right" on his own... if not he is still fighting weight because of a combination of poor diet, beer, lack of exercise or self motivation to seek the desired change.

Granted somatotyping is inherently flawed, there are certainly better, more politically correct ways to express body types but it was meant only as way to quickly reference body types. We have guys right now doing insanity (not enjoying it) who are hoping to put on muscle that are skinny. Sure it will get them in shape, they will most likely see results because they are dedicated. IMHO, they could do this (muscle mass) more efficiently and in the end create a routine with room for change more in line with their desire to be in the gym and not in front of a TV screen.

My initial thought/point was after you get your head right, be sure you take an objective look in the mirror and be sure your goals, diet and workout plan reflects your body type...however you want to define it-

[BillBoost37]

Knees started hurting. Taking a week off of leg stuff. It's mentally bugging me that I can't work out.

[SlowNA06]

Nobody is born to be lean/fat/muscular. These people picked a starting point late in life, evaluated it exclusively, and decided they were born that way. Wrong. Genetics primarily play into fitness at elite levels; when you've been lifting for 25 years and your deadlift has only increased from 825-830 over the past 3. That's an indication that you might have a genetic limitation. In broad strokes, we're all about the same. There is no "naturally muscular guy." Muscles don't materialize out of thin air. They come from eating and moving. Fat guy replaced his testosterone with cookie dough and estrogen. Skeletor? He never ate enough or was active enough. People that bother with somatotyping do so because they want an excuse for how lazy they are. They want to justify years of sloth, gluttony, and fear. They want to pretend their situation is somehow not their fault.

As for eating and training...
Sure, if you've got 5-10% bodyfat, sure you can afford to dirty up the diet just for a few extra calories. Heck, big ol' fat powerlifters do this anyway - excess calories increase work capacity, so will therefore increase muscle mass if you put it to use.

Keeping reps around 10? That's awfully specific. In general, rep ranges should vary, for a variety of reasons on which one could write a book. Sure, low reps with high weight increases strength, but so does a lower weight with more reps. Almost everyone that's strong an getting stronger consistently spends the vast majority of their time working within ~60-80% of their 1RM on their primary lifts.

But sure, you're right - eating and training have to align with your goals. Fat guy has to unf*ck himself with HIIT and a ketogenic diet before he's going to get anywhere fast. A ketogenic diet will be less than ideal for someone that's already lean - they'll need the carbs to grow. And so on. Saying they have a "body type" though, indicates that "fat" is not a problem they made, but a divine assignment. And that's a weak way to think.

Anecdote: I was born skinny and stayed that was for years, never played a sport, then basically spent some 17 years sitting at a couch or desk eating donuts (think I peaked at 270lbs, weak as a kitten). For the past year, I've taken fitness seriously after getting next to nowhere doing 3 sets of 10 reps of accessory lifts 3x/week... started at 258lbs, did HIIT/cross-training 3 hours a week on 1,200 calories a day for like 3 months, then started eating more like 2,000 and was able to bump it up to 4-5x/week. After about 6 months total, I cut down on the HIIT and started programming more like a powerlifter and bumped up calories to ~3,500 and made some killer strength gains. Took a couple months off from injuries and sickness early in the winter, and now I program heavy and high volume, eating up to 4,000 calories a day - keto at least 5 days a week (try eating 4k without carbs and let me know how easy it was), in the gym for ~90 minutes 4-6 days a week. I primarily squat, deadlift, and overhead press - only the most basic movements so I can build a foundation. I haven't tested my lifts in a while, but before I was sick this winter, my lifts increased thusly: Squat:135-335, Front Squat: 95-290, Clean: 75-215, Press: 95-195, Snatch: 95-170, Deadlift: 365-525.

Cardio isn't a normal part of my training at all . I can now take my previously-skin-tight jeans off without unbuttoning them; proof that I'm leaning out. I need bigger shirts and jackets to fit my shoulders. Just last month, I realized I've started having consistent morning wood - I was so hormonally f*cked from being a fattycakes that I haven't since college and I didn't even notice. Fancy that. That's a fair enough indicator that my testosterone levels are coming up to an average level, with a year of hard work, after years at rock bottom. The average American is retardedly test-deficient. We're a nation of manboobs. 75% of the guys I know have manboobs from low test/high estrogen.

But no, I'm sure it's just genetics, not hard work. I can't be taking credit for my "body type" now can I?

I bust my ass in the gym and at the dinner table. This works for everyone, regardless of starting point. The differences between methodologies for different starting points vary little in what is most effective. It's simply problem solving as they occur. So-and-so isn't a "hardgainer" - that would be a poor excuse for a lack of effort. He just never lifted heavy and ate his face off before.

Speaking of which, Kolton, if you're reading this, go eat an animal.

[Kolton Lock]

LOL...

i was gunna say... I WAS BORN SKINNY

[SlowNA06]

A good read that a friend sent me: There Is No Such Thing As A “Calorie” (To Your Body) - GNOLLS.ORG

[ItHurtz]

You mean genetics didnt make me go from 165 to 230? I guess the gym did pay off shucks. momma was right!

There are naturally muscular guys... and animals! myostatin? whatever the word is, I envy those ****s, to bad they die when they are 30.

Everyone has the genetic potential to be huge, just like everyone can be a fatass. Genetics and steroids =mr olympia. The average joe could NEVER win olympia. IMO the only genetic limitations people have from one another is muscle shape/attachment points, and slow/fast fibers.

P.S people that link things are stupid

P.S.S I need to eat more

[SlowNA06]

Genetics lend the ability to run bigger cycles for longer. The kind of things that would kill average joe.

[SlowNA06]

This was posted at 11:15pm today. Now I feel like I'm being watched.

To wit:

"For those of you, and I'm sure you are legion, who will contend that genetics play a large role in your current level of suckitude, allow me to pre-emptively retort- there has been no long-standing eugenics program of which I am aware that has created a race of subhumans. The body somatotypes that are bandied about in bodybuilding magazine are well-recognized as psuedoscience by everyone but Joe Wieder and Reddit. Your physical stature is a direct result of the food your parents fed you growing up and your level of physical activity. That's called nurture, mother****ers, not nature. If you suck, it's because your parents trained you to do so and you decided to continue on the path they chose for you. Those people you think of when you think "genetic freak" are actually just people raised in an environment that made them what they are."

ChAoS & PAIN: Transhumanism- No Longer Just For Cyborgs

[BillBoost37]

Holding my own on weight while not working out. Likely losing muscle quickly. It's ok, I'm nearly back to it!

[Bio248]

i lifted for the first time on tuesday in a while, was a bear. now my arms hurt.

my knee has been bothering me so i haven't been running as much...

[pe4me]

At this point it seems like an argument, but that was certainly not my intent .... I am not sure what this really is but it is interesting how fitness/genetics/body types are perceived.
I was a 3 sport athlete in HS, not a jock, better on a motocross track/snowcross track than I ever was at college/HS sports. I coached football, wrestling, track, mens/womens volleyball, and yes wait for it varsity BADMINTON. I have taught PE/Health for over 10 years and have spent enough time in the gym in HS, college, and after college back in the HS up until we started having kids 4 years ago. I am terribly average in size (fluctuate between 195-210) and never really engaged in this sort of banter online because it is a complicated equation, but I do think I have an unbiased opinion on this because I have seen it all. I never get into magazines and limit my sources and try to make it as simple as possible for all intensive purposes.
90% of what's posted above is true and works to some degree, what we can all agree on is there is NO substitute for dedication and general lifting smarts.
I am currently teaching in the middle east and see bodies from 60 different countries and do believe most of what was posted above to be true as I said. Mothers and nuture + genetics...sure but I dont believe we are all generally equal and then later in life slot into a figure.
There are families here with multiple kids eating the same horrible diets from the same gene pool and there are dramatic differences. Bones, muscle and fat growth and displacement is vastly different and they all respond different to food/exercise. That is not just in the middle east in grade 4(current role), but at home across the board. There is no naturally muscular guy? I guess I just don't get it? How can that be remotely true? I have seen kids (like me) built like Gumby and take kids buiit like Pop-eye and tie them into knots...literally. I have seen giant guys who are like Lenny, retard strong and other dudes who appear to be tone, but are the softest creatures on earth. There are kids that have freakish natural builds (genetics?), whatever you want to call it they are ahead of the gene pool. The need to lift half as much, half as hard and see results. There was a kid that was 5-8 that had Jordon hops...he good dunk a volleyball as a Junior. Incredible. Genetics come into play at elite levels? I guess I categorically disagree. No doubt, they are gifted, but they are all around us. I find it hard to believe anyone reading this doesn't know a dude who had IT and either was a stud and never worked out a day in his life or the guy who was even better but ended up a complete waste of talent.
Suppose you put a full team of athletes in the weight room and controlled most variables because you knew mom/dad were dedicated to improvement and YOU were in charge of putting together diets and directed workouts. Let's say you have a workout that is observed and done along side the athletes for 6 months. You have a heavyweight, 150 and 103 pounder and everything in between working out during this time. I am here to tell you that results are as unique as the kids...which is no surprise to anyone on either side of any debate. Let's also say you watched the kids from the time they were in elementary school to the time they graduated, I could make a strong case that there are various body types and maybe guess results based on unscientific genetic terms. Assuming you took the workout explained above, had dedicated athletes sticking to their diet and had closely monitored variables I can guarantee there would be kids wondering how the hell a FEW seen dramatically higher results. I will not profess to know all about this complicated equation but I can say without a doubt there are plenty of people who put in equal effort, equal muscle few on strikingly similar workout regiments who see dissimilar results.
Another fine example would be marines. Granted there are variables in this as well, but I would contend they have a pretty high standard of physical condition and even after they make the cut the guys who make it are in an elite physical gene pool. Private Pyle? Okay that maybe a bad example, but even at that level I bet they would be able to add to this conversation.
Fast twitch/slow twitch, diet plans whatever, the big boys are vastly different from the little guys and I am proud of anyone who can write how hard they work and how dedicated they are because that is awesome. That's the kind of people I have surrounded myself with, but you take that same hard work, similar diets and workouts and try it with 3 different sized guys and I would bet the differences in the amount of muscle they put on over the same time would be different...in some instances maybe dramatically difference.
I realize what is written (some of it anyway) and what is said to be true, and I see what is accepted and run-off as bogus over the years but at the end of day for classification purposes, using the types helps differentiate and creates a starting point for those who are interested in turning around their lives. Whenever I am asked, creating or talking with someone about their personal fitness I design a plan based on what I see. I usually start by steering them in the right direction with regard to diet and exercise(s) based on their goals what I see. Write or wrong it has led to good results.

[pe4me]

Currently, I work out in the foyer of my villa, schedule is tight with 3 little ones and I am big on the AM workouts. Stormin Norman used to live on the compound during Desert Storm.
Cheep home gym, chin-up bar and a few bands and dumbbells. Weighing 200 and hoping to be 215 by June 15. I should be working out harder (always the case for me at least) and refuse to pay over $100 for a tub of protein at the local GNC. Maybe it's psychological, but I seemed to get good/faster results using ON pro complex in an evening shake.

[Juanmiguel]

3 weeks ago per my doctor's recommendation and prescription, I started taking one Phentermine pill every morning, I stopped eating anything with sugar and now I work out more than once a week (I used to play tennis 1 hour per week). I've lost 13 pounds so far, I used to be 216lbs now I'm 203lbs. I'm supposed to take the pills for 2 months I wonder how far will I get.

[SlowNA06]

I like the discussion - I don't intend some kind of keyboard battle. I like your anecdotes, too - I find witnessed evidence to be far more useful than lab studies. Learning more is good for me.
My main issue is not with identifying a person's "base" fitness level, but those that self-identify with a model as an excuse for a shortcoming they control. One in 10,000 men is a "true hardgainer," but nearly every person I've met that wants to get strong, but isn't fat tells me they're a hardgainer, as if they've put twice as much effort in and gotten half the results of everyone else. If I ask them to detail their diet and exercise, they've got little idea what they've eaten in the past week and didn't pick up anything heavy. If you have no idea what you've eaten as a "hardgainer" then you're not eating. I remember nearly everything I eat because more often than not, it hurts to finish off the last few bites - you'll recall that I eat about three times as much as I did this time last year. And I'm a big fat guy - I can only imagine how much eating hurts to achieve dramatic results in the gym for a guy fresh out of a concentration camp.

All the same, progress is progress, and I think most people have unrealistic expectations for the results of their effort levels and time commitment. Six months in the gym, no matter how much they eat and lift, won't turn Jack Skellington into Wolverine... heck, it took Hugh Jackman a decade of dedicated hard eating and expensive training just to get that far. I can't stand when someone makes a destiny-based excuse for not living up to some ill-conceived expectation, when the real limitation is in their effort - whether that's education, routine, food, recovery, consistency, or how hard or often they train. The other thing is the expectation... six months of dominating at the gym won't put you on the same level as the guy that played lacrosse for eight years. Part of my frustration, admittedly, is because I've made really sweet progress myself and am almost totally disappointed by the results of all my rather tremendous effort. I try to use it as fuel rather than discouragement, but all the same, my experiences have led to a better understanding and therefore a more realistic set of expectations for what I or anyone else can achieve in any given amount of time at even the highest effort levels. So, what I mean to say is that it's not genetics holding people back - for the most part, we've all got about the same potential and make gains at about the same speed given the same effort level - just different starting points.

As for you gaining 5lbs a month... I get the impression that some of that needs to be fat. I've seen hard work and hard eating put on 2lbs of muscle/month. I'm very interested in having my paradigms shifted, so I think you need to make it happen to prove I'm a sucker.

Juan: That stuff actually looks surprisingly not-bad for you, from some quick googling. Results sound solid for it so far. Definitely keep us updated.

[ItHurtz]

and I think most people have unrealistic expectations for the results of their effort levels and time commitment.


Six months in the gym, no matter how much they eat and lift, won't turn Jack Skellington into Wolverine...

#1.THAT IS the #1 problem. IMO fatloss is easy as going to sleep, when you dont understand your ripping your muscle tissue at a microscopic level you wont ever understand or know how to reach the goal, IF at all is even possible in some times frame you got imagined.

In 12 months if you lived and breathed diet and lifting, your transformation would be INCREDIBLE.
2. 6 months eh, dare to bet?

[SlowNA06]

Well, I'm talking natty here. A few grams of dbol goes a long way I hear. But you know what, I'd take that bet - it's a good cause, win or lose. Think you can train a Skellington into a Wolverine? Or was there something else in mind?

[Bio248]

i am still pushing myself. i only weigh myself at the gym for my 'actual' losses, the scale at home can't be trusted for that. weighed in yesterday at 236.1, so that's down from starting at 257. boom, 20 pounds in just under 6 weeks.

[ItHurtz]

Well, I'm talking natty here. A few grams of dbol goes a long way I hear. But you know what, I'd take that bet - it's a good cause, win or lose. Think you can train a Skellington into a Wolverine? Or was there something else in mind?

Now find me someone who is willing to cry each day then its on! I dont know ANYONE who is willing to try that hard. Where is brandon when you need him hahaha