Thread: Studies Say Clearing Land for Biofuels Will Aid Warming

I got a good chuckle out of this. And I hope I will find Al Gore one day and tell him how much of an rtard he truly is

Here is the link to the actual article, but here are a few paragraphs I copied into the thread.

washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines

Clearing land to produce biofuels such as ethanol will do more to exacerbate global warming than using gasoline or other fossil fuels, two scientific studies show.

The independent analyses, which will be published today in the journal Science, could force policymakers in the United States and Europe to reevaluate incentives they have adopted to spur production of ethanol-based fuels. President Bush and many members of Congress have touted expanding biofuel use as an integral element of the nation's battle against climate change, but these studies suggest that this strategy will damage the planet rather than help protect it.

One study -- written by a group of researchers from Princeton University, Woods Hole Research Center and Iowa State University along with an agriculture consultant -- concluded that over 30 years, use of traditional corn-based ethanol would produce twice as much greenhouse gas emissions as regular gasoline. Another analysis, written by a Nature Conservancy scientist along with University of Minnesota researchers, found that converting rainforests, peatlands, savannas or grasslands in Southeast Asia and Latin America to produce biofuels will increase global warming pollution for decades, if not centuries.

Why would you have to clear rain forests and wetlands? Is there not enough farmland already available, at least for the beginning years?

Originally Posted by IndeedSS

Why would you have to clear rain forests and wetlands? Is there not enough farmland already available, at least for the beginning years?

Actually no. As I understand it, our farmlands have been shrinking quite a bit. By that I mean less and less farmers. So I would say no to that question. Even around here there is not as much as you would expect.

Secondly, I think the only answer ethanol provides us is more independence from foreign oil. Its a start, I wont knock that, but its certainly no total answer.

Thirdly is cost. Just the current demand for the product has driven ethanol prices to be pretty much in line with regular fuel prices, to say nothing of availability.

Then there are the reports like the one Geddy posted. Between the environmentalists, the scientists and so on, to hear them tell it there is no good solution. Everything we try to do some tree hugging or single minded group tries to derail it.

Sorry if I offend someone but the environmentalist type groups are people that I have a pretty sharp opinion about. I am all for doing what we can to protect the environment. But those igets would have us all living in mud huts and chewing grass if they could have their way. And then they would complain about how mud huts are upsetting the balance.

And I believe you are correct Reptile about the ethanol production from corn and sugar beets. I believe Venezuela uses sugar beets and while I dont care for their leader, they are a model in getting off imported oil. And, did you know that beets can be used to make a road salt substitute that doesnt have the corrosion of salt and is cheaper?

Actually there is some type of drought resistant grass that can produce more ethanol that either of those.

The reason the farmland is disappearing is the farmers weren't able to make decent money any longer. Perhaps things could change. When I lived in AR there was quite a bit of land not being farmed any longer due to expense versus profit.

Originally Posted by SyntheticShield

And I believe you are correct Reptile about the ethanol production from corn and sugar beets. I believe Venezuela uses sugar beets and while I dont care for their leader, they are a model in getting off imported oil. And, did you know that beets can be used to make a road salt substitute that doesnt have the corrosion of salt and is cheaper?

This is where I totally agree with you. Like you, I am not a fan of their leader either. But they have their own monopoly on Oil reserves on land and in their costal waters. There leader doesn't give a crap about treehuggers, and I am sure they have them. But here in the States, we cant drill in Anwar* in Alaska cause it will hurt the baby penguin! WHO CARES!!!

Of course there are critics saying it will take years before it would become fully operational. I would say WHO CARES! We need to do it now so that in the future we can flip the bird to OPEC and rely on ourselves. We all know we are oil needing slaves to OPEC. And the production of all battery power cars is slow in coming. Plus given the oil companies here in the US, they will use every means necessary to slow or hinder the progression to cleaner fuels. I dont care how many "hippy and environmentally friendly" commercials they put out saying they spend "billions" in research for alternative energy.

Its all a card game really, and may the person with the best hand win. And of course its gonna be the Oil companies with those aces stuffed in their sleeves everytime.

I see your point Geddy, I really do. But however they achieved it, they turned themselves around when it comes to that subject. And while the same tactics would not work here, the end result is something to be looked at here.

Also, keep in mind that we dont have all the facts or all the information. We largely form our opinions from the information fed to us unless you are one of the few that would spend hours upon hours reading through data, information and so on. Even then, its subjective information based on how one would interpret the info.

As well, keep in mind that vehicles are not the #1 polluter, buildings are. But vehicles are easier to change and adjust as they have a much shorter life cycle. But the environmentalists would have you believe that vehicles are pure evil and the only source of pollution.

Im not an environmentalist or a tree hugger, I take a middle of the road stance on it all. We need to do absolutely everything we can to protect the environment but we must balance that protection with what we need as a society. Im not convinced yet that we need to be drilling in Anwar (I dont know the spelling either). We are quick to say lets do this or that without consideration to the overall impact or the overall solution. And my view right now is that drilling in Anwar would be a very short term solution at best.

Personally I think we need a HUGE push to come up with reliable, repeatable, sustainable alternative energy solutions. Whether it be wind, solar, geothermal, or whatever or a combination of all of them or something totally different, but we need to know what will work. Then we continue to run OPEC dry and when its all used up, we can use the alternative energy. Okay, maybe that isnt the best thing to do, LOL

We also need to focus on more efficient engines. the ICE can be made way more efficient. My GP got 28mpg on the highway when I first bought it. Within months I had taken it to 32, thats a 15% increase just on what I have available to me. Think what could be done from the level of GM. There are already ways out there they just arent being used.

I belong to a couple of forums in which all they do is focus on ways to increase fuel economy. Some of the methods they employ I would probably not use but thats not the point. The point is they have found ways to increase mileage in HUGE ways. Some of them are getting 30, 40 50% or more increases. Thats BIG numbers.

So the solutions are already out there, but Im not sure that drilling in Alaska is necessarily one of them. We just need to come together as a society and make our voices hear and let corporate America and Government know that we dont like the feet dragging.

In bill Clinton voice" I did not inhail"

Bio-diesel is the way of the future if you Americans would finally adopt diesel.

PS. Canada has lots of farm land and is currently building North America's largest Ethonal plant. But I geuss that doesn't relieve the dependance on forigen oil

I dont believe it does at this point and it may be years before we find out because of the statement "currently building". I dont believe there is one single answer to the energy issues. Wind, Solar, Biodiesel, ethanol, all those, not one of them in and of itself is the answer. It will be a combination of several things including all of those and more efficient engines.

To which, diesels are because higher compression results in better efficiency. Does anyone know the highest compression biodiesel or ethanol will support?

Scotty,

You simply amaze me. And I mean that in the sincerest of ways. I really do understand your logic in everything you said. I am in agreeance with you that we need to find different and more effiencent forms of energy, but like I said in my previous post, big oil companies will not let that happen. At least not at the rate it should be progressing.

My thoughts on drilling the Anwar province are simple. Help us, the USA, ween ourselves off of OPEC's grip that is currently around our throats. And like you said about South America, we dont know how they managed to gooble up all the oil rich fields and seabeds, but I am sure it involved some unsavory tricks and deaths along the way to make them what they are now.

Luckily the US is not like that. But I think we need to sooner or later start thinking for ourselves instead of thinking about everyone else. We are always the "worlds police," we need to shed ourselves of that mentality and for once live and make things right for US, not everyone else. But then again when you have greedy politicians in office, and I am not naming names, we will always have hook in us till something changes.

One guy mentioned about BioDiesel, I think that is a great idea, but once again, the Oil Industry is going to do everything to slow its progress in the US, plain and simple.

I am quite curious to know more about your fuel savings and what you have done to acheive that mileage increase in your car. From 28 to 32MPG is quite impressive. And I would be curious to know what you did, to improve my car's performance to match those ratings. And like you, if you are able to achieve that success in improving your gas mileage, why cant automakers do the same thing? Once again that leads back to Big Oil lending their hand in it.

Just my thoughts on your thoughts

Remind me Geddy and I'll go over all I did. Its getting late here and I need to get to bed.

biodiesel only accounts for 12% of all fuels beinge used.....

I dont see how the little time we have had it..can clearly clarify it form other things that cause it...

Originally Posted by SyntheticShield

Remind me Geddy and I'll go over all I did. Its getting late here and I need to get to bed.

Consider yourself reminded good sir!