Thread: Headers or stock manifolds POLL

So who here is going to get headers and willing to do a dyno before and after ?

Originally Posted by GTPpower

Many do keep stock manifolds. Also, a set of headers on a ls style motor with forced induction will not pick up anywhere close to 50whp. Typical gains are 2-3%, if that.

Also, where is this proof that headers reduce knock? Because I've seen nothing of the sort.

If adding headers to a supercharged LS engine only added 2-3% something is wrong with the vehicle/tune. Headers and tune only on a GEN 3 or 4 V8 can add 10-20whp easy in the upper rpms. Then add a blower and the power to gained is even more. It's been proven that there is even a difference between 1 3/4th headers and 1 7/8th headers too. So only gaining 2-3% with a header install is not right, that's like saying I was at 400hp and payed $500 for headers and now have 410HP. The larger primarys and longer runners are what help increase HP/Torque.

Do people keep stock manifolds, yes but they are limiting their power output by quiet a bit. Many keep them for sound and emissions reasons.

Ask just the majority of the people that added headers or did a 3in downpipe/plog combo, the amount of knock is reduced because of a free flowing exhaust.

Originally Posted by Fivefingerdeathpunch

If adding headers to a supercharged LS engine only added 2-3% something is wrong with the vehicle/tune. Headers and tune only on a GEN 3 or 4 V8 can add 10-20whp easy in the upper rpms. Then add a blower and the power to gained is even more. It's been proven that there is even a difference between 1 3/4th headers and 1 7/8th headers too. So only gaining 2-3% with a header install is not right, that's like saying I was at 400hp and payed $500 for headers and now have 410HP. The larger primarys and longer runners are what help increase HP/Torque.

Do people keep stock manifolds, yes but they are limiting their power output by quiet a bit. Many keep them for sound and emissions reasons.

Ask just the majority of the people that added headers or did a 3in downpipe/plog combo, the amount of knock is reduced because of a free flowing exhaust.

No. Forced induction motors do not show gains with headers like NA does. You cannot compare a na ls1 vs one with a blower. They are nothing alike. Do some research. You will find that 700whp cars pick up 2-3% when switching from stock manifolds to headers. Take a look into the cobra world...very very few will run headers.

Originally Posted by CrazyGuy03

So who here is going to get headers and willing to do a dyno before and after ?

It's been done already.

But as soon as I find a new car, I will do it.

Originally Posted by GTPpower

No. Forced induction motors do not show gains with headers like NA does. You cannot compare a na ls1 vs one with a blower. They are nothing alike. Do some research. You will find that 700whp cars pick up 2-3% when switching from stock manifolds to headers. Take a look into the cobra world...very very few will run headers.

Now you're bringing in a whole different world of cars here.

My example is still correct. If you supercharged a 5.3 block that made 300hp and now makes 400hp at the tire because of the blower on stock manifolds. Then you added headers, you'd be retarded to think you'd only gain 10hp or 2.5% because of better exhaust flow.

Are there applications where something may not gain as much power, sure I guess but the way you are saying it is that NOTHING can ever gain more than 10hp because someone added headers to a supercharged LS.

I've done plenty of reading on the subject.


Did I exaaggerereate my 50rwhp gain, yes but there can still be a gain better than 2-3. Blown applications on a LS may not be as picky but in many cases than gain can still be rather good.

So, real world results are retarded?

If you have some to prove my example wrong, I'd like to see them.

I don't think I need to waste my time looking for one that makes 400whp, or gained 50 whp from headers.

I've give you one just for ****s and giggles

Still a GM with the new 6.2 V8 and blower. Guy made 523HP with no headers and an already install exhaust system, added headers and went to 543. A gain of nearly 4% with nearly 5% on torque. I'd want to guess that without the cat-back it would have been perhaps a hair less but we'd never know.

That was with 6.5psi of boost on the first run and 6psi with the headers. He then added 1 psi of boost to reach 7.5 and got 565/573 which is 8% more HP and 6% Torque. The 20-30 hp and torque gain throughout the mid range to upper range in the power band is worth the install and makes them worth the purchase to most people.

http://www.performancetrucks.net/for...calade-544321/

http://www.performancetrucks.net/for...-2-9-a-545114/

http://www.performancetrucks.net/for...-2-9-a-545114/



Can everyone get these results, perhaps not but to say that a typical result is less than 2-3% just doesn't jive.

Proof that you do not need headers is on ZZP's website.

http://zzperformance.com/3800/pulley...r-pulleys.html

Recommended Pulley sizes (based on 93 octane, 91 add .1, 89 add .3):
3.6" pulley - '04+ Grand Prix supercharged/ '00+ SSEi/ Ultra/ '04+ Monte/Impala SS with ZZP pcm, CAI, cooler plugs/thermostat, and bolt in downpipe.
3.5" pulley for '01-03 GTP/ GS with ZZP pcm, CAI, cooler plugs/thermostat, and bolt in downpipe.
3.5" pulley for '04+ Grand Prix supercharged/ '00+ SSEi/ Ultra/ '04+ Monte/Impala SS with 1.9 rockers, ZZP pcm, CAI, cooler plugs/thermostat, and some exhaust work.
3.4" pulley for '97-00 GTP/ GS with ZZP pcm, CAI, cooler plugs/thermostat, and bolt in downpipe.
3.4" pulley for '01-03 GTP/ GS with 1.9 rockers, ZZP pcm, CAI, cooler plugs/thermostat, and bolt in downpipe.
3.3" pulley for '97-00 GTP/ GS with 1.9 rockers, ZZP pcm, CAI, cooler plugs/thermostat, and bolt in downpipe.
3.3" pulley for '01-03 GTP/ GS with VS/XP cam, ZZP pcm, CAI, cooler plugs/thermostat, and bolt in downpipe.
3.2" pulley for '97-03 GTP/ GS with SS intercooler, ZZP pcm, CAI, cooler plugs/thermostat, and bolt in downpipe.
3.0" pulley requires larger injectors and a full size intercooler or SS intercooler and cam or rocker setup


That's right, ZZP doesn't recommend headers for any size pulley drop! Who would have thought that after years of research and development that ZZP wouldn't reccomend their own headers during pulley swaps.... It is downpipe only, and that is simply because the catalytic converter and u-bend are the restriction.

ZZP also says you don't need a trans cooler. Saying ZZP and proof in the same sentence is an oxymoron.

I'm not sure why people are so against ZZP. They have done great things in our platform. Yeah they are there to sell stuff but they put a lot of time into the science behind the products. Anytime I had a question they were willing to help and they never pushed to sell me anything. Of course any "store" wants to make money. That goes with all of the other platform stores as well.

Originally Posted by rickisrad

I'm not sure why people are so against ZZP. They have done great things in our platform. Yeah they are there to sell stuff but they put a lot of time into the science behind the products. Anytime I had a question they were willing to help and they never pushed to sell me anything. Of course any "store" wants to make money. That goes with all of the other platform stores as well.

why cause their site is full of bad info. parts are over priced for a 3/4 dead platform too. some parts no longer fit or work right, like a batch of plogs they made. talking via phone is about impossible. email and wait.

how many people you know who are truly happy with their zzp tune? they all run super rich. to the point of flooding it out. i know this cause ive fixed a handful of them already.

Stealthee, I'm not sure where you saw that ZZP says that you don't need a trans cooler, but every 3800 has one...

I was anti ZZP a few years ago due to some mishandled orders, and a lack of customer service... ZZPs customer service has gone up recently, and I have no complaints about some recent purchases. Let's all be honest, without ZZP, this platform wouldn't be what it is today.

With that being said, ZZP like all vendor tunes are on the richer side for a reason. When you're doing essentially one tune (per pulley, etc.) for a large variety of vehicles it is better to be on the safe side.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

its not safe when it runs poorly. last guy said his car felt like it gained 30 hp after its first touch up. he was like -22 idle and -12 wot, thats flooding out big time. car would not drive cold either, cause it was flooding out at idle too. it would bog and stall if cold.

How does a closed loop tune run rich?

Originally Posted by Fivefingerdeathpunch

I've give you one just for ****s and giggles

Still a GM with the new 6.2 V8 and blower. Guy made 523HP with no headers and an already install exhaust system, added headers and went to 543. A gain of nearly 4% with nearly 5% on torque. I'd want to guess that without the cat-back it would have been perhaps a hair less but we'd never know.

That was with 6.5psi of boost on the first run and 6psi with the headers. He then added 1 psi of boost to reach 7.5 and got 565/573 which is 8% more HP and 6% Torque. The 20-30 hp and torque gain throughout the mid range to upper range in the power band is worth the install and makes them worth the purchase to most people.

http://www.performancetrucks.net/for...calade-544321/

http://www.performancetrucks.net/for...-2-9-a-545114/

http://www.performancetrucks.net/for...-2-9-a-545114/



Can everyone get these results, perhaps not but to say that a typical result is less than 2-3% just doesn't jive.

Like I said, 2-3%.

Originally Posted by Explicit_Spade

Stealthee, I'm not sure where you saw that ZZP says that you don't need a trans cooler, but every 3800 has one...

The statement was about aftermarket external coolers and they had all sorts of dumb reasoning for being against them saying as much as heat doesn't kill transmissions. They also claimed that external coolers cost horsepower, with zero proof to back it up.

Originally Posted by stealthee

The statement was about aftermarket external coolers and they had all sorts of dumb reasoning for being against them saying as much as heat doesn't kill transmissions. They also claimed that external coolers cost horsepower, with zero proof to back it up.

Where can I see this? I'd like to read it for myself to try to understand their reasoning behind it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Not sure if they still do, but they used to say that coolers were unnecessary. Then wrote about a story where a guy ruined his trans due to a cooler line coming loose and running the trans out of fluid.

That being said, I've never used anot external trans cooler on a car.