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  1. #1 Coilover Confessional 
    #Billsnamechangessuck MrPoopyButthole's Avatar
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    Coilover Confessional

    I get a lot of questions about Coilovers and I think it’s time that we devote a thread to coilovers, so this post will be an in depth look at them, the following posts will be community forum of questions and projects.

    What are coilovers?
    Coilovers are defined as coils over strut design; they provide a definite advantage over your typical strut/spring combo. A typical coilover setup can provide the options that many are looking, those options include strut dampening, spring rate, ride height, and camber adjustments.

    Wikipedia:
    Coilover - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Cool, this sounds awesome, what are our options?
    Well….not a lot sadly when compared to other cars. There are two types of coilovers: Full setup or Slip over. We are unfortunately at this point in time stuck with slip-on coilovers. So we only get about half the fun: ride height, spring rate (although this would require a realignment of the vehicle), and dampening adjustments. More on what is available in a little while. The two general ideas to use coilovers are to improve handling dramatically or slam the car. Pick one. Why? Because you can’t technically slam a car and expect the car to handle at optimal performance when your LCA’s are point straight up in the air.

    Well it doesn’t totally blow, I can still drop it like it is hot…Right?
    Yes and no. This comes down to how much you want to spend and how creative you feel like being. When dealing with slip-on style coilovers, you are limited to what struts are available to us aftermarket wise, basically the struts you would use with regular springs. The strut options here are KYB AGX, Bilstein B6 (HD), and Koni (Koni idea: ClubGP:). These seem like good options and they are, but you cannot technically “slam” your car. Why? This comes down to using struts that match the same length as stock struts (with some negligible differences). Why is this bad? Because as we adjust the ride height lower on a slip-on style setup we lose suspension travel, meaning that every inch you drop, the less travel you have for the bumps and thus the ride starts to get really rough. A full coilover setup allow you to adjust strut height without sacrificing strut travel, here is how you adjust full coilover setups to give you an idea of how they work:



    On top of the fact that full coilover setups tend to also have a shorter strut, meaning that even if you set them at the highest height, the car can typically appear to be lowered. We can do the same with slip-on coilovers, it just requires some engineering. Your option here is to shorten the whole strut length about 2” to 2.5”; but you can’t just shorten the rod (otherwise you defeat the purpose and still bottom out your strut), you would need to shorten the body too, giving you the total shortened length of 2” to 2.5”, so essentially shorten the rod and the body about 1”-1.25” each. Ideally you would want to shorten the rod less than the body just to give a little extra cushion…for the pushin’

    Alright, well maybe I won’t slam the car, what do you think the best strut option is?
    Well if you are being reasonable about ride height (less than 2.5” drop) and still want control and comfort, I would probably suggest running Bilsteins B6s with a reasonable spring rate (Less than 300# springs), but these will not offer any form of dampening adjustment. KYB AGX’s will give you dampening adjustment and the ability to do a little more than the Bilsteins, although I personally don’t like KYB’s, we are limited and this is what I currently run. With these you can run a variable amount of spring rates, but keep in mind the higher the spring rate the rougher the ride. And last but not least, the best option in my opinion is the Koni’s. You can either run the above setup with the Koni’s with the stock strut length or give Koni a shout and have them make you some custom strut inserts. If you go for the stock length struts you can run them like the KYB AGX’s and vary the spring rates, the more you want to drop the higher you want to ramp up the spring rate. If you go all out and have Koni make you some struts, you will want to have them shorten the strut altogether, along with this option of shortening Koni even offers the ability to have them valve for a spring rate you are choosing. (Koni North America - Racing Division) This is ultimately the best option by far since you can get the correct dampening for high spring rates and a shortened strut, it’s a win WIN!....but it comes at a price, Koni quoted me almost $1000 just to do all this work, without even buying the struts. **I contacted KYB and they said they couldn’t do it because that would than divulge their strut dimensions that are apparently a closely guarded secret**(I’m serious I have the eff’n email from these guys, another reason why KYB blows, but it is all we have).

    Spring Rates…Why do you keep saying that?
    Spring rates are important because this is what it takes to compress the spring, when lowering a car it is common for the spring rate to increase, especially when you begin to lose strut travel. This is really not an ideal way to do things for handling since sometimes you can exceed the struts ability to work the higher spring rate. So a 250# spring will take 250 lbs to compress it one inch and a 400# spring will take 400lbs to compress it one inch. So for handling what you will want to do is pick a spring that already works with current strut valving or have something custom made and matched to a high spring rate (kill the body roll). For slamming or dropping low, you will just have to mismatch the spring with the valving, the general idea is run 400# front springs and 350# rear springs or maybe one step higher at 425/375, but be forewarned, your ride will not be the most comfortable, but it is “livable” (depending on your definition of “livable”, if you like your car to feel like the axles are pretty much bolted to the frame, then you can do it…okay it’s not that bad, there is some give). Another heads up that when you do drop stupid low and mismatch out of optimal spring rates for a strut, you are shortening its life dramatically, you can expect the strut to only last a fraction of its life expectancy.

    Alright I get it you Saab humping asshole…so where do I buy these?
    Well, you can buy these all completely made for you or you can make your own

    Buying:
    ZZP (made by HT Motorsports, so if you want to pick your spring rate, you need to go direct to the source): **and yes, you need the rear brackets**
    ZZPerformance - Coil Over Strut Package for Wbody #ZZ-COVRSRT-WB

    Intense: (They don’t have the custom top mounts like HT makes)
    INTENSE-Racing.com: INTENSE Coilover Pair for 97-03 W-Body

    HT Motorsports (now Arraut Motorsports…I guess):
    W-Body Products |

    You said make your own, what does that take? Well I will include some links to various threads to give you an idea of what you can expect. I see that Arraut Motorsports now sells kits, where they sell you the springs and top mounts, which I recommend because those top mounts are worth their weight in gold, which is to say that doing the completely custom route isn’t any less impressive either.

    Links:
    ClubGP Message Forum troubleshooting
    Grand Prixs Of North America • View topic - My homemade DIY coilovers *lots of pics*
    My DIY coilover swap thread!!! Update: Got my springs in!!!

    So this rear bracket…wtf is it?
    The rear bracket is so you can keep your rear sway bar, you NEED TO KEEP YOUR REAR SWAY BAR. Plain and Simple.
    This is what it looks like (click, cause picture is huge):
    http://arrautmotorsports.com/files/2...over-G.M.1.jpg

    Okay I bought the coilovers, what else do I need?
    Well, these coilovers leave the strut a little exposed in my opinion, which can also shorten the strut life if debris can contaminate the oil in the strut. So I recommend getting some coilover covers, I tried a couple different options and these are the ones that I currently run and seem to work well (IIRC, I ran the one they marked Rear in the Front and vice versa):

    Gearheads Online :: HRP :: HRP Coilover Covers for Evo X

    Sorry, I don’t have any pictures, but it will come up a little short so it will wrap around one of the rungs of the spring but the Velcro on these things are awesome so it will hold.

    I also suggest lubing the crap out of the thrust bearings since they are open to the elements, I used white lithium grease and have yet to go back in there to relube them (hehe Lube…Here is an amazon listing to a 55 gallon tub of lube for no reason (no don’t buy this…it’s a joke): Amazon.com: Passion Natural Water-Based Lubricant - 55 Gallon: Health & Personal Care

    There were some sealed thrust bearings, but someone ordered them and I think they ended up finding out that they were discontinued.

    I’m a 2004/2005 Grand Prix…can I do this? (and I think some 2006’s)
    Yes, you just have to swap out your LCA’s to ones with the sway bar mounts built into the LCA, which looks like these (see the little tabs):


    You will also have to swap out to a 97-03 style sway bar, the dorman sway bar is the best option since it is solid.

    If you aren’t sure what you have for a setup, a quick look through the wheel should tell you. If you see a long skinny bar connecting up to the strut, then you need to swap it all out. Otherwise you should be good to go. GXP’s and post 2006 GP’s should not have to do any of this stuff, these coilovers should be a direct drop in.

    Okay enough talk, show me some pictures of the car dropped as low as possible.
    Unfortunately, I never dropped all the way. When I started with the install, I started with the rear and I dropped them setup all the way and it wasn’t going to work. See the white line on the tire, that’s how much of the tire that is covered on a drop all the way:


    This is how much more I could drop the front spring (but at this point I tend to bottom out the strut with a decent bump, also notice what happens to thrust bearings when exposed to the elements):


    And what that looks like on the outside:


    So do you regret buying these?
    Nope, I’m glad I bought them. I do wish the ride wasn’t so rough and I could get some of the adjustability like the full coilover setups. But it’s not all that bad, the car feels great and feels like it’s on rails; despite the fact that my LCA is pointing straight up in the air (the idea is to keep the LCA parallel with the ground as much as possible for optimal handling).

    Another member on this forum bought coilovers and realized quickly that these do have limitation, unlike air suspension which he has now. Read up on his thread:
    http://www.grandprixforums.net/baker...nce-63328.html

    So I bought these Coilovers and when I jack up the car, do my ****, then lower the car back to the ground, I hear a loud bang. What is that?
    Because these are slip-on coilover setups, the spring dismounts from the top mount and when you lower the car back down it “snaps” (bangs or pops) back into place, it really doesn’t hurt anything and over time it seems to slip in place easier. This is another reason to get coilover covers, they help hold the spring in place so 9 times out of 10 you don’t get the “Bang” into place effect. I also found that lowering the car slowly tends to help.

    Can I daily drive these?
    Sure, but be aware they are “exposed” to the elements between the strut and thrust bearing. Also if your slamming, you have to weigh the options between being able to adjust on the fly with air bags or be static and risk taking some serious damage at some point, of course if you’re riding lower on air bags going down the road, you risk not reacting fast enough debris or pot holes. So understand the risks of being low and daily driving…**** can happen.

    For others who would like to post, they can talk about their experiences with coilovers or their build ups or if you have questions, ask them here!

    Thanks for reading…and I apologize for grammar and spelling mistakes.
    Last edited by MrPoopyButthole; 01-22-2013 at 10:42 PM.

    Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.
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  2. #2 Re: Coilover Confessional 
    Turbo is the way to go. Fivefingerdeathpunch's Avatar
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  3. #3 Re: Coilover Confessional 
    #Billsnamechangessuck MrPoopyButthole's Avatar
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    A great suspension thread that dives into strut dampening and spring rates (and will help explain why when you begin to mismatch spring rates because of ramping up for lowering aspects it can affect how the car handles):

    Defining car suspensions

    Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.
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  4. #4 Re: Coilover Confessional 
    GrandPrix Junkie
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    [QUOTE=Drunkie;960804]Alright I get it you Saab humping asshole…[QUOTE/]

    Best line EVER!
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  5. #5  
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    Great job.
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  6. #6 Re: Coilover Confessional 
    #Billsnamechangessuck MrPoopyButthole's Avatar
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    I should mention, I chose form > function because our W-body's are "technically" a weak platform and weight distribution is way off. I admire those that are willing to ignore that and AutoX/Track their w-body's, I did it with a Maxima too, but I want a car that can be balanced now, so I keep the Grand Prix as a show car and I'll have something else down the line to give me what I want

    Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.
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  7. #7 Re: Coilover Confessional 
    Moderator DanPrixGTP's Avatar
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    Magnificent Thread.
    '97 GTP - Stage 2 Heads, 90# Springs, 1.9 Harland Sharp Rockers, Gen V, 3.0, Intake, N* TB, LQ4, FSIC, 10.5mm Wires, Poly Mounts, SLP Headers, Borla Exaust, Built Trans - SOLD*

    '08 G8 GT - 6.7L 408CI Stroker, 239/254 Cam, Fast Intake, 102mm TB, CAI, Full Exhaust.





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  8. #8 Re: Coilover Confessional 
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    Very well put!!! Helped out a lot. I do have a question though, the reason we cant put 500lbs springs on agx struts is because the rebound rate is to low for that high of spring?? I know you said you have 400lbs springs in front, does that where your agx's faster or can the agx's handle 400lbs with little to no wear??

    Thanks Drunkie
    Quote Originally Posted by deadwoodspecial View Post
    On a side note, I do want to add that Classy is keeping it classy through all of this. The guy has a hell of a business ethic, and is doing everything possible to make this right. If anyone was, is, or has considered getting retro's, I HIGHLY recommend him. Good prices, and he backs his sh!t.

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  9. #9 Re: Coilover Confessional 
    GrandPrix Junkie NegativeOne13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fivefingerdeathpunch View Post
    My man.
    Oh no you didn't sista.... that is muh man!

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  10. #10 Re: Coilover Confessional 
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    Very nice write up Sir, It answered a lot of the questions I had, but after seeing bakers ride, if I get to this point, I will go bags. Thanks for taking the time to do the typing.
    Goldie 98 Topaz Gold GTP (retired)/ Shadow 06 GTO 6.0 Phantom Black Metallic- traded in. Now cruising a 2005 GMC Sierra 2500 HD 4x4 with the always fun 6.0L
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  11. #11 Re: Coilover Confessional 
    #Billsnamechangessuck MrPoopyButthole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Classy Pontiac View Post
    Very well put!!! Helped out a lot. I do have a question though, the reason we cant put 500lbs springs on agx struts is because the rebound rate is to low for that high of spring?? I know you said you have 400lbs springs in front, does that where your agx's faster or can the agx's handle 400lbs with little to no wear??

    Thanks Drunkie
    I'm sure you could run 500# springs, but I'm not sure you would want to even ride in the car. I assume you want to run such a high rate for the lowering purpose, the lowering part will really do the struts in for wear. I guess I may have worded it wrong, going higher on the spring rate won't technically wear the strut out, its the lowering aspect and if you do some really soft springs it can wear the struts too (but who wants soft springs on coilovers).

    Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.
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  12. #12 Re: Coilover Confessional 
    DUI BABY Bio248's Avatar
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    high spring rates really, really require the struts to be valved correctly.

    when that happens the ride isn't really 'harsh', just 'stiff'.
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  13. #13 Re: Coilover Confessional 
    #Billsnamechangessuck MrPoopyButthole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bio248 View Post
    high spring rates really, really require the struts to be valved correctly.

    when that happens the ride isn't really 'harsh', just 'stiff'.
    That's what she said.

    Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.
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  14. #14 Re: Coilover Confessional 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bio248 View Post
    high spring rates really, really require the struts to be valved correctly.

    when that happens the ride isn't really 'harsh', just 'stiff'.

    What do you mean by valved? Whats all done in a revalve job?
    Quote Originally Posted by deadwoodspecial View Post
    On a side note, I do want to add that Classy is keeping it classy through all of this. The guy has a hell of a business ethic, and is doing everything possible to make this right. If anyone was, is, or has considered getting retro's, I HIGHLY recommend him. Good prices, and he backs his sh!t.

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  15. #15 Re: Coilover Confessional 
    #Billsnamechangessuck MrPoopyButthole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Classy Pontiac View Post
    What do you mean by valved? Whats all done in a revalve job?
    When a strut is designed and manufactured, they tend to pick a middle of the road value for the ideal spring rate. KYB AGX's tends to average around 250#'s, so if you put a spring that has a spring rate that matches the valving ability, the ride will provide the optimal performance, in handling bumps and cornering. The more a spring and strut can work together, the better you are. Now move out of the threshold of the struts valving and the spring either does all the rebounding/dampening (higher rate) or lets the strut do all the work (lower rate), this is turn can cause a bouncing effect you would feel in the car, it can also mean when taking a corner the tire could incorrectly handle a bump and the tire spends less time making contact with the asphalt (when you really want to make a science out of it). SO what the valving really does is handle the dampening/rebound aspect. There are a number of ways struts can be valved and the more elaborate it becomes the more expensive the strut.

    This is what valving and pairing spring rates can do for you:



    Of course other things are at play here, but this guy does give alot of credit to his suspension setup that he had custom done, which began with pairing strut and spring. FWD compact car can take a porsche in the corners

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  16. #16 Re: Coilover Confessional 
    #Billsnamechangessuck MrPoopyButthole's Avatar
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    but for a grand prix on to be able to handle on that kind of level...it would need more than just paired coilovers. Hence why I just went with Form on this one.

    Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.
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  17. #17 Re: Coilover Confessional 
    GTP Level Member 2001goldGTP's Avatar
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    Do you have a part number for the Bilsteins B6s, and or what about the Bilsteins B6 adjustible 10?
    I bought some used coilovers, big mistake the fronts are all jacked up

    Thanks in advance
    xp'd
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  18. #18 Re: Coilover Confessional 
    #Billsnamechangessuck MrPoopyButthole's Avatar
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    Bilstein, Innovation and High Quality Since 1873

    There are no adjustable bilsteins for us, so again I would recommend a mild drop with these only. No tire meets fender.

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  19. #19 Re: Coilover Confessional 
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    yeah im just looking for a smother ride nothing crazy, do those come as just shock, or do i have to remove all the provisions shown, like the plate the spring sits on?
    xp'd
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  20. #20 Re: Coilover Confessional 
    #Billsnamechangessuck MrPoopyButthole's Avatar
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    They come stock, so yes you will have to cut off the spring perch.

    Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.
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