Thread: NEED final advice before installation

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  1. #1 NEED final advice before installation 
    SE Level Member jersey jok3r's Avatar
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    just wondering if any of you guys can prevent me from installing something wrong before the end of this week. When I bought this car I was a complete noob with all this shyt. I installed all the mods in my sig but have a couple of questions before installing my 3.4 pulley and PLOG. First question i'm running a 104 autolite now, and I get different advice whether to use a 103 or 104. which one should I be using?
    Next I was going to install the 3.4 pulley in my noob stage but some of you guys saved me and my engine by educating me about this stuff. The car has a shelf tune from overkill for a 3.4 pulley on it now even know it has the stock pulley. I know headers are better but I had a friend who was selling parts and he had a brand new plog and I got it for a good price. Will the overkill pcm run well with the 3.4 and plog or should I go to a tune place not to far from my house for a dyno tune?
    Lastly during my noob stage the GREAT zzp people told me a throttle body spacer would be good for me. Until I found out its for meth injection...... Its on the car now but I know it helps for separation from the sc but it also causes hot spots or KR, should that come off as well. Any advice will help thanks guys
    Ported Outlet/Inlet,3.4 pulley,ZZP PLOG, ZZP 3"DP,U bend delete, K&N CAI, ZZP wires,high-flow CAT, ZZP TB Spacer, Autolite iridium 104s,180tstat, OVERKILL PCM, Borla Cat Back system, Black Halo HIDS, Phantom autometer gauges
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  2. #2 Re: NEED final advice before installation 
    GrandPrix Junkie machinegunsquid's Avatar
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    I run Autolite 104's with my setup (check my sig) and they work great. I actually put in 103's and the car wouldnt idle for ****, so I stayed with the 104's. Also, stay away from Iridium plugs, and get the copper 104s, they are cooler, and cheaper too....

    As far as the Plog, Just soak the exhaust manifold bolts with WD-40, or penetrating fluid. It will make it a lot easier to break them loose. It's easier if you remove the top motor mounts, and move the engine forward/backward in the engine bay, so you have more room to work. When I put my headers on I just used the stock exhaust gaskets that were on there, and they sealed fine.

    As far as the throttle body spacer, it will reduce throttle-body temps, but wont decrease the air temperature at all once it's in the supercharger, so it's only used to keep the TB/sensors cooler, or for a Meth/Alky injection setup.

    For the tune, you should be good to go with your overkill PCM (what I have, love it) But you really should get a scan tool, to see if you're getting any KR at all before the pulley drop, and especially after the pulley drop.

    "**** bills. You can live in your car but you can't race your house" -dsmuts
    Want her to stop when she's not looking karate chop her in her crotch that should quiet her for a bit or at the very least put a smile on your face -REDCOMPG
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  3. #3 Re: NEED final advice before installation 
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    ummm what pulley did you tell will you would be running?

    His PCMs aren't adapting to the pulley size nor are they JUST for the typical 3.4 pulley setup.

    You give him a modlist and he changes the pcm based on that.

    Unless you modded the coolant passenger on the side of the LIM underneath the EGR port then take off the spacer, doesnt do anything really.
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  4. #4 Re: NEED final advice before installation 
    SE Level Member jersey jok3r's Avatar
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    i told him i would be using a 3.4 pulley with the mods i have in my sig
    Ported Outlet/Inlet,3.4 pulley,ZZP PLOG, ZZP 3"DP,U bend delete, K&N CAI, ZZP wires,high-flow CAT, ZZP TB Spacer, Autolite iridium 104s,180tstat, OVERKILL PCM, Borla Cat Back system, Black Halo HIDS, Phantom autometer gauges
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  5. #5 Re: NEED final advice before installation 
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    Then you'll be fine, but you are probably running quite rich right now.
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  6. #6 Re: NEED final advice before installation 
    SE Level Member jersey jok3r's Avatar
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    matt and machine thanks guys I appreciate it
    Ported Outlet/Inlet,3.4 pulley,ZZP PLOG, ZZP 3"DP,U bend delete, K&N CAI, ZZP wires,high-flow CAT, ZZP TB Spacer, Autolite iridium 104s,180tstat, OVERKILL PCM, Borla Cat Back system, Black Halo HIDS, Phantom autometer gauges
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  7. #7 Re: NEED final advice before installation 
    GrandPrix Junkie machinegunsquid's Avatar
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    Not a problem, if you need anything else, just either post it here, or PM me

    "**** bills. You can live in your car but you can't race your house" -dsmuts
    Want her to stop when she's not looking karate chop her in her crotch that should quiet her for a bit or at the very least put a smile on your face -REDCOMPG
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  8. #8 Re: NEED final advice before installation 
    club of used to own a gp 99prixgt's Avatar
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    you need a street tune. canned pcm's aren't the answer.
    16' wrx sti- stock
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    99 silvermist gp gt-g5/xp/IC/3.0mps-parted&sold
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  9. #9 Re: NEED final advice before installation 
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    canned tunes are hit and miss, but for the most part are decent for a 3.4 setup.
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  10. #10 Re: NEED final advice before installation 
    GrandPrix Junkie machinegunsquid's Avatar
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    Will seems to know his **** at Overkill, I got my PCM tuned from him for my 3.4" setup, and have no knock at all. I dont know if I'd get an off the shelf tune from the other vendors, that just have a generic tune.

    "**** bills. You can live in your car but you can't race your house" -dsmuts
    Want her to stop when she's not looking karate chop her in her crotch that should quiet her for a bit or at the very least put a smile on your face -REDCOMPG
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  11. #11 Re: NEED final advice before installation 
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    DHP tune is prolly good as well.

    But i really like the tranny settings will uses.

    Holds first just enough to get around the corner then goose it.
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  12. #12 Re: NEED final advice before installation 
    SE Level Member jersey jok3r's Avatar
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    Guys only more question I recently ordered a wideband af to replace my useless narrband and got the analog aem gauge is there any difference between digital af and analog besides the obvious digital display
    Ported Outlet/Inlet,3.4 pulley,ZZP PLOG, ZZP 3"DP,U bend delete, K&N CAI, ZZP wires,high-flow CAT, ZZP TB Spacer, Autolite iridium 104s,180tstat, OVERKILL PCM, Borla Cat Back system, Black Halo HIDS, Phantom autometer gauges
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  13. #13 Re: NEED final advice before installation 
    GrandPrix Junkie machinegunsquid's Avatar
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    Nope, Analog has the little needle, and the digital has the colored light ring.

    "**** bills. You can live in your car but you can't race your house" -dsmuts
    Want her to stop when she's not looking karate chop her in her crotch that should quiet her for a bit or at the very least put a smile on your face -REDCOMPG
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  14. #14 Re: NEED final advice before installation 
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    On a true wide-band anything richer than 11.3:1 is too rich IMHO as any intercooling effects from the extra fuel will be negated and you'll just be throwing horsepower away. The DHP PCM on average was setup to run about 11.4-11.4 at WOT on a 3.4 Pulley setup with a U-Bend removal, 160-180 stat, and cold air kit. Not sure what Overkill does but you should be able to verify once your WBO2 is installed and calibrated.

    As far as plugs go if you DO get some KR on the 104's I suggest trying our XP103 Iridium plugs gapped at ".035 ish". 103's in copper might misfire but I've had pretty good luck down to 25 degrees with XP103's as they have far better ignitability than a copper plug. I know some may not like Ir plugs, however ours, (Autolite's) do have a precious metal pad welded on the side wire and work pretty well in DIS ignitions. I run them with no issue in my light pressure turbo and supercharger applications and we even ran them in the Supercharged LSX Solstice to 800 HP when I was at Thomson Automotive! I've run our XP's in the S/C Montana for 50,000 miles now! Even at 12 psi you'd think they are new. FWIW, Copper plugs work great for about 15,000 miles and then the sidewire erodes and the gap starts to grow. If you started with a larger gap than .035 or so you might see some breaking up under boost near the shift point.

    Don't neglect the wires as well OK? Too many times I see new plugs and dead wires.

    If you haven't swapped the pulley yet be sure to buy our borrow a tool in good condition so you don't tweak the threads in the S/C snout.

    If I can help you please drop me a note.

    Dave Buckshaw
    Last edited by superdve; 10-09-2010 at 11:53 AM. Reason: Missed a few thoughts!
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  15. #15 Re: NEED final advice before installation 
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    Each car flows differently so its impossible to have a single tune that always results in the same AFR.

    If you need 103's on a 3.4 setup to kill knock you're doing it wrong.
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  16. #16 Re: NEED final advice before installation 
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt5112 View Post
    Each car flows differently so its impossible to have a single tune that always results in the same AFR.

    If you need 103's on a 3.4 setup to kill knock you're doing it wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by matt5112 View Post
    Each car flows differently so its impossible to have a single tune that always results in the same AFR.

    If you need 103's on a 3.4 setup to kill knock you're doing it wrong.

    It IS possible to lock in WOT AFR. The O.E. does this for each car they build. Also note that I said on average for the DHP PCM. Certainly as in your statement each car WOULD flow differently if a customer used a different cold air kit from the "Thrasher" and similar setups that DHP calibrated with back in the day. If a calibration is done properly, i.e. 1) Injector flow data properly established and the correct injector slope entered into the calibration and 2) The MAF table's transfer function corrected for any changes sensor selection, placement or air box design, etc. Then whatever is commanded for P.E. enrichment in the PCM should be constant. Normally .1 to .2 A/F ratio variance should be expected at wot on a factory setup from car to car. During part throttle conditions we need to correct to stoichiometry., (14.64 on gasoline approximately 14.17 is on E10), to provide the catalyst with the proper feed gases to ensure reduction of NOx and oxidize CO and HC. This bandwidth is very narrow meaning we cannot run 15.2:1 and expect a reduction in NOx nor can we assume that at 14.2:1 on non ethanol gasoline can we expect to oxidize all excess HC that is leaving the combustion chamber.

    If you are doing your own tuning you need ensure you have entered the correct injector slope in the IFR table and then to force the PCM to run open loop at a fixed target A/F ratio and correct the MAF transfer function to a quality lab grade A/F sensor like a Horiba or a Lambda Pro., and then airflow changes in the engine will be correctly fueled unless you run out of MAF resolution.

    I helped Greg Banish of Calibrated Success produce a GM calibration video on just this subject and he has kindly included some very valuable injector flow data for common injectors used in performance applications.

    As far as the KR and Plug heat range issue is concerned I don't think on an non Intercooled 3800 that you can remove ENOUGH heat from the combustion chamber at WOT! The delta T, (blower outlet temp vs inlet temp) from the M90 is pretty extreme even at factory blower RPM's and air density and temps just get worse as we overspeed the blowers. On blown cars I like to run as cold of a plug as I can get away with that doesn't misfire during cold and idle conditions. Keep in mind that for a plug to properly remove heat from a combustion chamber it must also be tight! Loose plugs are dangerous! So you are not doing anything wrong trying to do all you can to remove excess heat from the combustion chamber because you have induced so much from the air inlet temp in the first place! However changes in plug heat range only affect a minute part of the process and are really only effective IMO to keep the plug itself from inducing preignition from creating electrode hotspots.

    In tuning to be so far to the left of the "spark hook" with retarded timing is only throwing away horsepower and at some point can cause a rise in EGT with a negative effect there as well. The question remains do you really need 103's on a lightly modded 3800? The community has always said no, you are doing something wrong or something is wrong with your setup if you have that issue. I'm merely suggesting that this particular application is troublesome because it lacks an intercooler so removing excess heat from the plug tip will not hurt unless it causes misfire or incomplete combustion. It basically helps to remove a variable in the KR factor. Throw an efficient intercooler, a good cam and headers that scavenge real well and the plugs could now be too cold and misfire! The classic thinking on most 3800 forums is that you have "arrived" and now you NEED 103's because you can now run a 2.8" pulley cause you tossed all the heat back in with the pulley! So does the combustion chamber know that you have serious mods on top of it? Nope it pretty much sees that all that heat and prays for some induced EGR via camshaft overlap to help cool the combustion chamber! Does anyone ever dare to run a 3.4" pulley with serious mods? Nope, we all want 15 psi of boost no matter how crappy the air density is!


    To get back on track for our person who asked the questions is by all means be sure to get some sort of a scan tool in place to see if you are getting KR under any conditions. If so after ensuring adequate octane, fuel pressure, and no exhaust restrictions and a healthy engine that's not huffing 50 octane oil into the combustion chamber, see if that KR is gone or reduced during cooler ambient temps and work towards reducing blower outlet temps however you can. If you can get 15 degrees of timing at WOT with no KR you are doing OK in my opinion! But if you have to throw any more fuel to the engine than 11.3:1 on an accurate wideband I feel you'll need to look at some other issues. 104's should be perfect and if you used 103's as insurance so that the plugs wouldn't induce PI that's ok.
    Last edited by superdve; 10-10-2010 at 10:03 AM. Reason: grammar
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  17. #17 Re: NEED final advice before installation 
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    Appreciate your time there.

    Really the best thing is to run a plug that should be ideal and pull it to look for signs of high or low cylinder temps. Only really works if your tune is on.

    Another question I have: Does gap affect spark temp?

    Only reason i'm asking is because a 3.4 setup should still be able to pull off a gap of 0.055 at least. (granted your coils arent on their way out, same with the wires)

    From what i understand if you went down to a 0.030 gap that'd be almost a step cooler relative to stock gap of 0.060
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  18. #18 Re: NEED final advice before installation 
    The mod from over yonder TheOtherNick's Avatar
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    The gap does not effect the temp. I ran a .060 gap on my 3.4 setup.
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