Meth vs Intercooler

**BwolfGT** · 12-25-2009

E85

**Bio248** · 12-25-2009

Originally Posted by ais

It seems like a good idea to inject under the supercharger. However, on these non-intercooled engines its not needed and poses some possible problems. If you were running an air to water intercooler under the supercharger then yes. Yet still I would run injection before the supercharger as well as under it.

For one your going to want to run solenoids right behind each nozzle. If you don't the engine is going to siphon fluid out of the lines all the way back to the pump or check valve/solenoid. Causing a potential to have a fluid line go dry for several feet causing a delay in the system as the pump will have to refill that empty line before it can pressurize the line and spray.

Plus, by running it down under the supercharger like you have you need to be concerned with distribution problems. If you spray it above the supercharger the supercharger will evaporate much of the water methanol as it passes through it while also doing a really good job of dispersing it evenly out the discharge.

Additionally, by spraying it under the supercharger your giving up the ability to cool down the supercharger case and housing. Also, when you inject where your at you'll want to make sure the IAT sensor is located where it can pick up the air temp drop from the methanol. That way if your tuning for the methanol you can set up your ECU to pull timing in the event the methanol runs out or stops working.

Hope this helps.

Rodney

once again youre not completely correct. spraying after the blower allows you to actually use that meth in a similar fashion to running ethanol. you use the extra octane and the cooling effect in the cylinders. mike also had a small nozzle in the throttle body. before AND after is the best idea.

**ais** · 12-25-2009

Originally Posted by Bio248

i realize what youre saying, but when you actually run a meth kit you want the progressive controller. i ran it and the difference between peak boost and whatever is made at WOT is different. i set mine to turn on at 8 and peak at 11-12. i made a pound or two more boost at the top of each gear which is where i wanted the progressive aspect of the controller.

Oh your right. You made a pound or two on the top of each gear. I know. Trust me you can get a Stage 1 system to perform the same exact way as your progressive system with setting you have.

I've set up hundreds of systems. If I had a customer come to me with a GTP running 11 psi and he has the good 93 pump gas. I would set him up with a stage 1 system and set the switch to activate at 8 psi just as you have.

Now here's something you might find interesting. When you look at air temp logs on these non-intercooled Eatons. You'll see a slight initial gradual decline in air temps before they bottom out when you fire off a Stage 1 system.

You see when you fire off a Stage 1 system, even though its a flat rate system, it doesn't all hit the cylinder when its fired off. that is if your spraying it before the supercharger. A large part of the initial injection is lost as it evaporates when it comes in to contact with the rotors surfaces when passing through the supercharger. So the initial hit doesn't all get shot gunned right into the cylinders. A large part of it is lost to the supercharger roots and case. As the supercharger begins to quickly cool off less of the water methanol is eveporated and makes its way past the supercharger into the lower intake in effect giving you sort of a progressive feature.

Hope this helps explain. I've setup water methanol system and worked with a lot of guys running Eatons or other roots and twins screws such as the Kenne Bells, Magnachargers, Whipples etc.

Rodney

**ais** · 12-25-2009

Originally Posted by Bio248

once again youre not completely correct. spraying after the blower allows you to actually use that meth in a similar fashion to running ethanol. you use the extra octane and the cooling effect in the cylinders. mike also had a small nozzle in the throttle body. before AND after is the best idea.

Please explain how I'm not correct and how running the methanol before the supercharger doesn't do exactly what you already want on a non-intercooled Eaton such as this.

Rodney

**Bio248** · 12-25-2009

im not sure that entirely classifys as a 'progressive' setup, even if the blower doesnt cool instantly. my car only knocked up at the top of the gears with the high boost. the higher the boost, the more the knock. i didnt want to run any meth if i didnt need to. it was an addition safe guard for me which is what it should be used as in most cases. running the methanol before and after the blower allows you to cool the blower itself and to not lose a ton to being vaporized by the blower. the distribution problem isnt as bad as you think when you spray in the right places like mike has done.

i also ran 100% methanol and was mainly going for as much octane as i could get out of all situations. this coupled with e85 would have run easy 12s on street tires at the track.

DevilsOwn · 12-25-2009

I am suprized you would come on here... you have such a bad rep for doing people dirty.

Your not welcome on this forum.

**Bio248** · 12-25-2009

Originally Posted by ais

Please explain how I'm not correct and how running the methanol before the supercharger doesn't do exactly what you already want on a non-intercooled Eaton such as this.

Rodney

you dont run meth to JUST cool the blower and intake charge. it cools the intake charge when sprayed post-blower, but doesnt cool the blower. if you do both, you solve both your problems. if you only spray pre-blower you end up wasting a lot of the meth just being burned up in the blower.

Originally Posted by DevilsOwn

I am suprized you would come on here... you have such a bad rep for doing people dirty.

Your not welcome on this forum.

wowzers.

**blueguy** · 12-25-2009

Originally Posted by DevilsOwn

I am surprised you would come on here... you have such a bad rep for doing people dirty.

Your not welcome on this forum.

OWNED.

dvldoc · 12-25-2009

Yeah looks like old AIS is hard up for sales, so hard up he's hitting the competitions forums. Hope your enjoying the nozzles we designed

Soon he'll be on our main one lol

**TheOtherNick** · 12-25-2009

Originally Posted by dvldoc

Yeah looks like old AIS is hard up for sales, so hard up he's hitting the competitions forums. Hope your enjoying the nozzles we designed

Soon he'll be on our main one lol

I was going to say their stuff looks exactly like yours.

**1998xGTP** · 12-25-2009

info on what's going on here?

**ais** · 12-25-2009

Originally Posted by Bio248

i realize what youre saying, but when you actually run a meth kit you want the progressive controller. i ran it and the difference between peak boost and whatever is made at WOT is different. i set mine to turn on at 8 and peak at 11-12. i made a pound or two more boost at the top of each gear which is where i wanted the progressive aspect of the controller.

If you want a progressive feature on your car then get a controller that works off of a 0-5 volt signal and pull your signal off the MAF. Just trying to help here.

Rodney

**TheOtherNick** · 12-25-2009

Originally Posted by ais

If you want a progressive feature on your car then get a controller that works off of a 0-5 volt signal and pull your signal off the MAF. Just trying to help here.

Rodney

The devils own controller does run off a 5 volt signal.

DevilsOwn · 12-25-2009

Originally Posted by ais

If you want a progressive feature on your car then get a controller that works off of a 0-5 volt signal and pull your signal off the MAF. Just trying to help here.

Rodney

I just want to point out so someone does not try this. never hook up an item intended for 0-5v input to an item that gives off a 12v signal ..... Anything that is gm maff is this way. But you should not that because like you said you have sold hundreds of these.

**ais** · 12-25-2009

Originally Posted by Bio248

if youre not knocking without the meth then drop pullies for sure. switching to 100% meth will take away a little of the cooling effect the water has, but your octane level will go up (a bunch). i always liked the idea of more octane and not cooling anyway. how do you think so many people run 12s or faster at the track? race gas. e85 + 100% methanol = super race gas.

youre never going to "feel" methanol. its just something that allows you to run more timing and boost, which is what you will feel.

Actually we've been able to get lower intake air charge temps using pure methanol vs mixes like 50/50 or -20 wind shield washer fluid. When you run mixtures containing large percentages of water. Your limited to how much you can spray simply due to the water. There's only so much water you can spray through an engine. Spray to much and the engine will bog and lose power. To much water will prevent the air fuel mix from lighting off and burning causing the engine to bog. There's nothing you can do other then going down to a smaller jet or putting more methanol in the mix. If it's an EFI application and you have full tuning capabilities. You can always tune around the extra methanol as its a fuel and will burn. You can tune around to much water.

With that said. you can see how your limited to jetting with mixtures containing large percentages of water. When you run pure methanol you can spray much much more. You need to as well. When you work with methanol you need to use a lot of it for it to work. Just like guys are finding out with E85 cars and how they need to step up their injectors and fuel pumps to push more of it.

So for example. Let say you had a GTP in which you were running pure water and found the engine could only accept a number 3 jet. You found that was the limit for this motor when running pure water. Anything more and it would begin to loose power.

If you then switched to a 50/50 mix you could easily spray a number 6 as half of it will still be 3 gph of water which we found the engine could take with no power lose. yet now the other half of that 6 gph nozzle will now be 3 gph of methanol/fuel which we can tune around. Because your spraying twice as much fluid into entry of the supercharger you will see a greater drop in discharge temps. Shouldn't be to hard for anyone to understand and agree with without actually doing the same yourself. I've worked closely with customers in which we did this very sort oif thing with a non-intercooled Eatons and Kenne Bells and logged air temps.

With the cooler air temps we also found it gave us much better knock control and allowed us to run more timing and boost. just as our octane requirements go up when we hit the air charge temps. The cooler your air charge temps are. The lower your octane requirements are as well. Anytime we can get better knock control and push off the threshold of engine knock. Its not a bad thing and makes for a safer tune. Even if you don't want to run all that timing.

Now imagine if you ditched the water or ran a mixture with very little water. You can step up your jetting again allowing you to spray more for a greater drop in discharge temps. Like I said I ran through this a few times with a few non-intercooled Eatons and Kenne Bells. I wanted to know for myself what the effects were and if we could get better results and we did.

Would you rather be 8-10 degree's away from engine knock or 2-3 degree's. Keep in mind not all cylinders are receiving equal benefits of the water methanol injection. Its all to common to see one cylinder lose a piston while the rest are just fine. its very easy to not hear one cylinder detonating until it's to late. And once it happens it has a greater chance of happening again and again as detonation removes the buffer of unburnt gas we have on top of our pistons and cylinder wall. Allowing the heat in the cylinder to begin to fully transfer to that portion of the piston. As that area becomes hotter it begins to magnify the problem on the next compression stroke causing it to happen again. This is why you see guy torch the side of the piston.

Hope this helps explain things better someone in this forum finds it helpfull. Rodney

**ais** · 12-25-2009

Originally Posted by dvldoc

Yeah looks like old AIS is hard up for sales, so hard up he's hitting the competitions forums. Hope your enjoying the nozzles we designed

Soon he'll be on our main one lol

Nope problem with sales. Just doing my job. A member on this forum posted a link to our website and our software picked it up notifying us of this site and the water methanol injection discussion going on.

I recognized the screen name 468Rocket as Chance from Devils Own. Thought it was funny to see him message someone to call Devils Own and how they will help him there. Why not just say this is Chance from Devils Own and give me a call and I'll help you out. Why be sneaky and act like someone else?

As for the nozzle. I called them to inquire about having a nozzle machined. I had no idea they made your guys nozzle until they sent me a sample of your nozzle. They never mentioned your name and just said we have something you might like and already make it. Would you like for us to send you a sample. OK?

They offered to sell us nozzles after you guys couldn't pay for the nozzles you committed to and agreed you would pay for in 12 months. You left them with the balance of thousands of nozzles. This isn't the deal they wanted. Their not in the business of sitting on thousands of dollars worth of nozzles you guys didn't want to accept and pay for.

If you guys didn't leave them with all those nozzles. They wouldn't sell them to us or anyone else. Sorry but why would we have them machine a new nozzle design when they want to unload these nozzles?

Rodney

**ais** · 12-25-2009

Originally Posted by DevilsOwn

I just want to point out so someone does not try this. never hook up an item intended for 0-5v input to an item that gives off a 12v signal ..... Anything that is gm maff is this way. But you should not that because like you said you have sold hundreds of these.

Really. GM mass air meters don't send a 0-5 volt signal back to the computer? Then how do they work? And why have I used this signal to work with our controllers countless times? Also, how is it I have had customers use the LS1 mass air on their 3800 engine by using a 3 to 5 pin adapter pigtail?

Rodney

**TheOtherNick** · 12-25-2009

Originally Posted by ais

If you want a progressive feature on your car then get a controller that works off of a 0-5 volt signal and pull your signal off the MAF. Just trying to help here.

Rodney

How is the devils own controller not exactly that? I runs off a 5 volt signal from the map.