car wont start

**bmx6454** · 06-05-2012

yea, but is it possible that when the p.o. tried to start the car so many times while it was hydro-locked, that it could of cracked the tensioner, and messed up the timing? and ive been told that if the timing is off a little, that putting it 2 tdc will make it start.. not sure 100% if thats true though. just trying to try to rule everything out 1by1.

**BillBoost37** · 06-05-2012

You can't change timing w/o a programmer or taking the timing set off and changing it. Even if the tensioner/dampener broke, it's highly unlikely that you could jump timing. Thing of a chevy small block, those things will wear a hole in their timing covers before ever thinking about jumping. These 3800's are the same..they just don't typically jump.

Since this motor had a hydrolock and you are getting odd things, I can't remember...have we had you check the firing order? What if someone mixed up your coil packs and the order is off?

**bmx6454** · 06-05-2012

firing order was wrong, and i corrected it. but it seemed to make no difference

**Rico** · 06-05-2012

Originally Posted by BillBoost37

You can't change timing w/o a programmer or taking the timing set off and changing it. Even if the tensioner/dampener broke, it's highly unlikely that you could jump timing. Thing of a chevy small block, those things will wear a hole in their timing covers before ever thinking about jumping. These 3800's are the same..they just don't typically jump.

Since this motor had a hydrolock and you are getting odd things, I can't remember...have we had you check the firing order? What if someone mixed up your coil packs and the order is off?

I agree with Bill. These aren't the old nylon coated teeth cam gears like back in the day. Gears are solid steel. The chain would break before jumping time...even without the tensioner present.

Some things to check:
Harmonic balancer/CKP (crank position sensor)
CASE (crankshaft angle sensor error) learn for PCM
Wiring from ICM to CKP (crank position sensor) and CMP (cam position sensor)
ICM/wiring - check for 12 volts to ICM (pink wire) and it's 15 AMP fuse
Coil packs
spark plug wires
Over fueling/under fueling

With good compression is looks to me like something electrical. Spark timing is controlled predominantly by the CKP. A good hot spark originates from the battery --> ignition fuse --> ICM --> coil packs --> plug wires --> plugs.

**bmx6454** · 06-05-2012

I have tested all fuses, and the coil packs are firing. But I have no clue how to test most of the other parts u listed, except just throwing parts at it. But tbh, Im kinda on a budget, and I'm trying not to throw parts at it. Are there ways to test these parts? I checked the ohms on the fuel injectors already. But if it was over fueling, wouldn't it start?

**Rico** · 06-06-2012

Are there any DTC's like 1336?

Many checks are free:
Recheck firing order like in scottydog's picture
Harmonic balancer - does it spin straight or make any noise? A broken reluctor will mess with timing
Wiring ICM - check for physical damage to any wires and connectors from the CKP and the CMP
ICM power - check for 12 volts (12.5 V) on the pink wire when key is "on"
ICM - remove the ICM and check for corrosion between it and the bracket. Autozone can test ICM
Coil packs - remove the coil packs and check for corrosion on the ICM pins (6)
Over fueling - prime the engine a few times then pull the FPRelay. If it starts then it's over fueling.

Parts:
Harmonic balancer $15-$30 at a junk yard
ICM $150 or so
CKP $30-$40
CMP $30-$40

CASE - I doubt this is the problem but I've seen stranger things. Has anyone messed with the PCM, harmonic balancer, CKP or CMP?

One last thing: Check and make sure there is not a huge vacuum leak somewhere like the PCV or a stuck IAC. To test this, cover the TB with something and try to start the car. If it starts then there is likely a huge vacuum leak.

**bmx6454** · 06-06-2012

okay, the vacuum leak might be possible.. considering the evap is completly missing due to it being destroyed while taking the motor apart lol. but, i thought engines would still start without an evap, just run really rich? my other car ran for a few months with no evap just fine. and i taped over the spots where the vacuum lines go to rule that out as well. and i was kinda leanin towards the ckp. but im gonna check everything u suggested 2morrow. thanks.

**BillBoost37** · 06-06-2012

Also... I know you said the order is right.. but let me just do the below

here's your engine
Firewall
2.....4......6

1....3.......5
Radiator

here's teh coils
Firewall
Coils
3/6
2/5
1/4

It's pretty easy to have the order off. I'm an expert at it. That'll cause enough of an issue, add in vacuum leaks, possible over fuelling.. (why about teh fueling bugs me)

**crazybrownklick** · 06-06-2012

Isn't
6 3
2 5
4 1

**matt5112** · 06-06-2012

Originally Posted by crazybrownklick

Isn't
6 3
2 5
4 1

Doesnt matter its waste spark. Fires both every time.

**BillBoost37** · 06-06-2012

Easiest way to remember it is .. start at bottom count up 1, 2, 3... restart at bottom 4, 5, 6.

Both towers on each coil fire at the same time, which is what Matt is saying ...

**crazybrownklick** · 06-06-2012

[QUOTE=BillBoost37;814546]Easiest way to remember it is .. start at bottom count up 1, 2, 3... restart at bottom 4, 5, 6.

Both towers on each coil fire at the same time, which is what Matt is saying
Your right they fire at the same time

**bmx6454** · 06-06-2012

thanks, but ive checked like 10 times on the order(literally). i havent touched the car in like 5 days now, due to waiting for funds lol. and i find that usually when it sits for a day or more, it tries harder to start. but im starting to think itse either the icm/ckp/cmp, bc when i was hand cranking with a socket while i had the engine apart, i hit those wires quite a bit, so im thinking maybe i damaged one. ill check it out 2day.

**bmx6454** · 06-08-2012

okay, i got some "possibly" useful info today from the p.o. he told me that just a few days b4 the engine locked, he was driving, and took a left turn, and it stalled and for seemingly no reason. and then started right back up with no trouble. he said that this never happened to him b4 that. not sure if this info is useful... could this be a bad pcm?

**BillBoost37** · 06-08-2012

Most likely bad crank sensor.

Rico...wasn't it just the other week we had a similar one and it was the crank sensor?

**bmx6454** · 06-08-2012

Thanks. I'm gonna replace it and hope for the best. Is it hard to get to?

**Scottydoggs** · 06-08-2012

you need to take the harmonic balancer off to get to it.

**bmx6454** · 06-08-2012

any special tools required for that?

**Scottydoggs** · 06-08-2012

you need a puller like this one. and the right size bolts to fit the balancer. im not sure about the size. some one will chime in for that.

air tools help to get the bolt off, but a breaker bar and a pipe can break it loose as well, you will need to put a pair of vise grips on the flw wheel to keep the motor from turning.

heres bills how to. http://www.grandprixforums.net/how-r...sor-60906.html