ok first off i bought all these parts direct from zzp and took them to tk to have installed so i know they were bought from zzp i bought them, tk could of switched parts i cant prove he did or didnt but this is all the info i have so what do you guys think?
these pics were taken as soon as they arrived from zzp still in the zzp shipping box and then chain removed from box still in plastic for a picture (proof i bought them from zzp)
now here is pics of the damage on the driven gear:
damage to the 4th hub from the driven gear:
and here is a pic of it machined to correct tolerances by a machine shop. (machined to match a factory driven sprocket)
now this is what the conversation was between me and steve at zzp:
me: hey steve i am having some major issues with my trans and i am not sure what is causing it to happen and i am hoping you guys can shed some light for me.
i was having a awful wine noise coming from the trans when in gear, if it was in park or neutral it would not do it so i figured it was a torque converter. i dropped the trans and i have metal all through the pan so i pulled off the side cover and valve body/channel plate to find my bushing between the drive gear and channel plate was shattered and in pieces everywhere and the channel plate and drive gear have rubbed together scoring each other. i then go to 4th gear and remove clutches and 4th gear hub and the bushing was there but somehow the 4th gear hub still made contact with the driven gear which resulted in scoring as well.
any ideas what caused this?!?!?!
steve: Just wanted to let you know I received this, I am VERY backed up, and I will get back with you tomorrow.
me: OK sounds good thanks for the reply.
Also after further research in the parts and comparing fears to gears it looks like the driven gear was machined wrong from the factory (not enough material taken away) which caused not enough clearance and gouged the 4th clutch hub and gear. It would be best if you could call me tomorrow when you get a chance so I can describe more. My number is 724-994-7893
steve: I did a little digging around here, and nobody could pinpoint a cause to your issues. We don’t really deal with transmissions a whole lot here, we generally outsource them…..one less thing we all have to learn/know lol sorry man, im not gonna be able to help yah on that one.
me: We came to the conclusion the driven gear was machined wrong from the factory. Its a shame that parts I bought from you guys (I know you don't manufacture them) trashed my whole trans.
zoomer: Is this something we could get back for inspection?
me: I couldn't wait any longer I needed this fixed for a car meet on may 11th. I took the gear that was machined wrong and a stock gear to a machine shop to have it fixed. This was a big shame though. Caused me a lot of grief and money.
I have pictures you can look at and easily see the difference and where it was machined wrong. There is also a thread on grandprixforums.net with all of these pictures showing where the gear was machined wrong....
I couldn't wait any longer I needed this fixed for a car meet on may 11th. I took the gear that was machined wrong and a stock gear to a machine shop to have it fixed. This was a big shame though. Caused me a lot of grief and money.
zoomer: Looked at the thread and pics, not seeing the issue. Can you explain it better maybe?
me: ok here is my gear that was machined wrong, note where the gear was rubbing the 4th gear hub (gouged ring on gear)
this is a comparison of my gear that was machined wrong on the bottom (note between the red lines) compared to a gear machined correctly in the top pic. look and compare where the holes are drilled in the gears its clearly visible that it was messed up from the manufacture.
this is a pic of a gear machined correctly the difference is night and day and easy to see that my gear was not machined correct from the factory. (this is not mine this was pulled off the internet as a comparison)
if this dont make you see it i dont know what will and i guess ill just be out of luck on this junk gear set that i paid a machine shop to fix the manufactures mess up and also all the other parts i needed to replace do to this (channel plate, 4th gear hub, input, 2nd, 3rd, 4th clutches, converter gaskets, etc.)
this was just a big shame and a huge set back for me all do to a manufacturing error, would be nice to get compensation somehow somewhere for this seeing as how it was a manufacturing error and not installation error by any means.
zoomer: I see what you’re talking about but you are comparing it in the picture to the GM 1” trans gear which always looks very different from the 7/8” sets. I am also not familiar enough with the setups to say what it’s supposed to look like. I do see the difference you’re pointing out tho and at first glance it does appear to be a machining issue.
Having said that let me explain where we’re at. ZZP gets our sets from triple edge. Dave Norris. We also get them from certified transmission.I bring this up to explain why it’s a little harder for me to know and check the part than if it was made here. Having said that, I started this company with a few goals in mind based on my personal experiences in modding cars. One of my goals was to never have a customer regret buying parts from us. So if this gear is wrong and caused damage, I want to address that. I need to verify that it was wrong, the damage part is obvious. Then I can send out replacement items for what was damaged. Getting the part back, I then take the issue up with our supplier, but that’s a pretty independent process from us taking care of you.
me: I already had the gear machined to correct the issue out of my pocket. I also bought all the parts I needed to replace I couldn't wait I needed this fixed asap. The comparison was not to a gmr 1" it was to another 7/8 gear and pics show obvious manufacturing error. I can't send it back as it was corrected by a local machine shop but the pics clearly show what was the issue. I paid $100 at a machine shop to fix this plus the other parts. I'm quite frustrated with this whole deal...
turbo tim: Sorry to hear about the failure.
Can you send me an invoice # for the original purchase because I cannot find anything under the name “John Poney” This gearset isn’t a Triple Edge setup, so it is made by the transmission shop that we have been using for around 15 years called Certified Transmission or not purchased from ZZPerformance.
me: i can look back into all of my records and find it i am sure but it will take a lot of digging. i bought it november 26, 2010 on your black friday sale. i bought a lot of other stuff at the same time as well. here is a picture of the chain set brand new from you guys still in your box as soon as it arrived and also a pic of it just out of the box still zip tied together and chain in plastic bag... see attachments (above pics)
got no reply from turbo tim as he contacted dave at TEP, i talked to dave and explained what i have going on and he said he wanted to see a few more pics so i sent him all of these and this is our conversation through email.
me: Hey Dave its john Poney. Here is a pic of the chain and gear set I got brand new from Zzp. The washer is on the gear but you can still see the hole is in the tapered part of the gear. Showing it wasn't machined deep enough.
dave: I just compared the two sprockets and put them on one page- they are not the same sprocket and as I thought this was not a ZZP sprocket. View attached file
me: I'm not seeing how it isn't the same. It looks the same to me. You would know better than me though.
dave: Look close at your problem sprocket- there is a short flat section/step just next to the washer groove. The ZZP sprocket does not have a recessed area for the washer and has a straight angled line from the washer to the of the sprocket as it should be- no step. It is also shiny in appearance, yours is dull and not as smooth of a cut.
me: The "step" was do to the 4th hub rubbing the groove into it.
dave: That looks intentionally machined to me. Those sprockets are very hard metal, the 4th hub is soft metal that would easily wear before leaving any mark on the sprocket- also the 4th hub does not have a square edge on the bottom and has a radius that would not wear the sprocket that way. I have cut the sprockets in a lathe myself, they are much harder metal than the hub. Your 4th hub picture only has one small groove from that edge of the step riding on it, not a wide flat area the width of the step on the sprocket.
me: This is the same gear after it was machined to the correct tolerances. The same gear that was rubbing and had the groove in it. Note how it needed cut farther back and a steeper angle was made to clear the 4th hub.
dave: I don't know what to tell you, the pictures are of two different sprockets. Attached is another picture pointing out things I mentioned to show the differences. You can see that the two angles on your used sprocket are parallel to each other but not the same line, the step spaces them apart. I looked at the worn 4th hub picture you sent me also and it is only worn on an angle, no way it would have worn a flat step on the sprocket up higher and wider than the hub itself. Also if you look at the 4 outer holes- your new ZZP sprocket has a flat machined angle going across the hole. The used sprocket has the flat step in the middle of the hole. It would only wear downward into the metal. I'm not trying to kick a dead horse here but to me that clearly is not a ZZP sprocket and they are not at fault.
me: Like I said its w.e. I don't know if the step was there when it was installed I didn't put it in. Tk may of switched them Idk for sure. All I know is I have proof the step wasn't there when I bought them new from Zzp and tk suposibly put my parts in and now I tore it apart and the step is mysteriously there. The 4 outer holes in the brand new Zzp sprocket are in the tapered part that was the issue. Once I had it machined the 4 outer holes went to the flat surface like it was suppose to be in the first place that was the machining issue that was the problem with the factory gear.
dave: I agree with the angle being in too far- but look at this pic that I made notes on and you can see the difference. The lower angled area after the step is what your machinist would have taken out- which does not exist on the new picture you have. There is a flat area right over outer holes, the new sprocket has a straight angle that goes across this area. Our sprockets are machined identical the OE gear and are out farther also so there is no clearance issue.
me: the reason there was no step in the new original gear was it was never installed to have clearance issues to make the groove. in the original brand new sprocket pic you can clearly see it wasnt machined back far enough it never cleared the outter 4 holes. this is where the problem started, it was a clearance issue in wich caused the "step" in the gear.
dave: The other thing I recall- The ZZP sprocket has a 45 degree angle on it, so cutting across the hole is not an issue as the angle is wider than the 4th hub so it moves away as it goes towards the top. The factory angle is about 61 degrees, so not as shallow of an angle and has to start out wider at the bottom to clear than a 45 degree angle.
me: its fine im done with this, its my loss and zzp's gain im moving on with the build and putting it in the past as a lesson learned is all. sucks it was a $1,400 dollar lesson is all. thanks for the input and ill be looking forward to receiving my parts from you and getting her running again.
so whats all you guys input?? is dave and zzp correct on tk switching gears on me or was this a faulty zzp gear that there trying to smooth over?
on all fronts....It would be highly unlikely that your builder stole your ZZP gear set and installed some that were incorrectly machined. It would be wayy more simple and logical that the ZZP gear set wasnt machined correctly and they are just screwing you around because they dont want to admit fault. The fact that its been through so many hands and for so long only further complicates the matter. Your best bet is to forget about it, live and learn. More specifically learn who not to buy parts from.
