Thread: I been had... New car, bad trans.

Maybe it was just low on fluid then if the pan was loose.

welp, been a week and nothing has changed... which is a good thing. I have noticed it does the hard shift thing when it gets warmed up too, but its tolerable. I placed an order for a shift kit from ZZP last night. I will throw that in there to cure the hard shift issue. The last item is what i thought was the engine RPM's pulsing up and down during cruise, but folks on this site pointed out that is yet another transmission problem, likely a stopped up TCC passage or solinoid. Since my 4th gear was slipping when hot (before lucas), I think i should take the following course of action.
Order the Transgo Shift kit.
Order new 4th gear clutches and steels.
Order new Tcc, PCS, and shift solinoids.
During weekend, drop trans, remove sidepan and install new 4th gear clutches. - Cure 4th slippage.
Install Transgo Shift kit - Cure hard shifts and other random small ussues.
Install new Solinoids- In case the problem is not hardware related and it was just electrical in nature. Just get em all while I'm in there.

In your expert opinion, will this take care of all of my trans problems for sure? Or is this a stab in the dark? Am I leaving anything out that would be good to do while I'm in there?
I dont mind doing all this stuff if there is certainty. But ifs it just "worth a shot" then I might reconsider.

new symptom. When i was first starting my drive to work friday morning, i made it out of my neighborhood and pulled out on the a main high speed road. I began to give it some gas and first gear was slipping. It was moving the car, but definately slipping at the same time. Once i got a little road speed, i felt it engage 100% and the slipping stopped. I didnt press the issue and drove normally to work. On the way home from work that day as I transition from various interstates to other interstates, I like to give it a lot of thottle in the accel ramps. This time it was slipping in the 3rd gear too. Once i was off of the interstate, i was at a stoplight. when it turned green i gave it alot of gas to hurry up and get in front of someone before reaching the next stoplight. this time, first slipped again, but when it caught, it actually chipped the tires.

I am thinking rather than having a bad 4th gear, i think i have a pressure problem accross all gears. I would think the common demonimators here would be pressure control solinoid and pressure switch. If it aint those, maybe a weak pump, or leaks. Something of that nature.

I went ahead and ordered up the transgo shift kit and a pack containing the PCS, TCC , two shift solinoids, and the pressure switch. I will do just these items this coming weekend and then see how it looks from there.

Originally Posted by nukkinfuttz

so, how does the lucas stuff work? any success stories? or just worth a shot, but probably wont do anything?

well my trans stopped pulling completely.. fluid was blacker than a tire.. changed it added lucas.. it drives.. no noticeable problems.. hope you get yours going

zzp shift kit showed up. I got bored so i went ahead and installed it just now. I think i know why i have hard shifts... the pins that are in the center of my pistons in the accumulators were both scored up bad. when out and in my hand, if i put any kind of side load on it while sliding up and down, it would grab the shaft. this is probably happening while in normal operation and giving me erratic, hard shifts.

I looked for an found some metalic sludge build up on the roof of both accumulator housings... where the springs ride. I believe something in the trans might be coming unglued and sending trash into everything else. After I cleaned this stuff up good and reassembled, i poured my fluid back in. in the bottom of my large walmart lexan tupperware tote, i see lots of silver glitter. Something IS coming apart! crap.

Are there any known suspects when you see glitter? is it the Torgue converter, or something else? It must be aluminum or the magnet would be catching this stuff. the magnet only has the brown sludge stuff on it though. So, what is alumimum that can shred into the fluid?

Thanks.

could be the over drive. aka 4 th gear hub shredding its splines, but i would think thats made of steel.

but then again if its stainless steel a magnet wont pick it up.

so, I drive it basically one day back and forth to work and its slipping agian when hot. So, the next morning I go to drive it and it slipping in 1st so bad just leaving my driveway, im like, "no way" and pull back in, and take my truck to work instead. Yesterday after work I tried to drive it up my driveway and into my garage and its slipping so bad, I had that thing at like 4 grand just barely creeping up my driveway to my garage. How nice.

I dropped the pan again last night to see if maybe one of those lines going to the accumulator came out or something. Nope, they were all tight.

Since my Transgo shift kit showed up, i went ahead and removed the ZZP **** kit and installed the Transgo shift kit into the accumulators. I plan to drop the subframe and pull the side pan off tonight to do solinoids and the rest of the shift kit that can be gotten too in there. I'll prolly pull the pump out and have a look at it. If I dont see any smoking guns there, or in the valve body shuttle valves, I might try taking the gear drums out to see if the clutches are shot or something.

What should I be looking for when it just plain wont barely move all the sudden? Oh crap, now that i say that i know... Forward band! right? I think i can see that tab up thru the bottom pan. I can at least see if its there and/or broken right?

Guidance/tips will be much appreciated.
Thanks

if its slipping that bad its time for a rebuild or a used tranny swapped in.

Got the side pan off. Naturally I have managed to break every connector on the wire harness, so looks like I'll be down for at least a week while I order and wait on one of those. Since that is the case, I think I might go ahead and strip this thing down as far as I can while it is still in the car.

I got the pump out and inspected the inside of it. I dont see anything detrimental in there, I think its okay for the most part. The one thing that concerns me is there is a little basket filter thing that is attached to the pump body... mine has a large tear in its fabric. So, it hasnt been a filter for a while. It was also maybe 20% loaded with silver colored metal flakes. Which means those same metal flakes have likely passed thru the basket filter breach... leading to somewhere, i have no idea.

The other thing that deeply concerns me is my driver side axle stub coming out of the trans... I can wiggle that thing all over the place. I'm sure it cant be that way from the factory, it must be located by a bearing support or bushing or something, right? I want to get in there to at least see what thats all about.

Oh, and that band that can break off its tang and then leave the car to where it cannot move... mine is okay as viewed from the viewport looking up thru the bottom of the pan. I wiggled it around and noticed it had quite a bit of play before it engaged. I know on my dodge truck, the bands are set really tight. Basically you snug the adjuster up with a bolt to fully seat it, then back off like 2 turns. This leaves it really close to the drum with very little motion required from the servo to engage it. However, on this car, i see a ton of play here. is this normal? It also looks like there is no adjustment for this band either... so it either works or it doesnt?

I bought the snake oil becuase this place recommended it. And it worked to some extent.
I bought the ZZP shift kit becuase this place recommended it. I read up about how easy it was to install and how it cured hard shifting... which is what i had at the time. I went to ZZP's website and saw it was only 50 bux, so I bought it.
well, after buying it, i kept lookin on this site and found that there was actually another brand shift kit called Transgo for the same price of 50 bux and not only did it come with the same stuff the ZZP kit came with, it came with several other fixes too. I actually felt stupid for buying the ZZP kit after seeing the transgo kit. So, i turned around and ordered the transgo kit to get "everything".

Now, I have this tranmission side over off. Why in the world would i want to just give up here and go get a used, unknown transmission? I think that now that my trans is open, i have access to pretty much everything that could be wrong. If the pump is bad, i can put a new on in. If the clutches and steels are bad, i can put new ones in. if hte solinoids are bad, I will put new ones in. Whatever the case, im at the point where i can replace whatever is bad, why would it make sense to abandon this trans now?

Its great to hear you paid 40 dollars and got a good trans. Please give me a link to one of those. until that happens, i have only five choices...
1. fix the one i have. - it will be much easier to find the problem since i know what its symptoms are, dont you think?
2. Find a used one on craigslist- I would have to pray to god that the person selling me this trans as good would not be lying thru his teeth just like the guy who sold me this car on craigslist who said "the engine and transmission are terrific".
3. Go get one at my local pick-n-pull- I can score one here for 100 dollars, but the car is probably at the junk yard BECUASE the transmission is bad! Since they have no history on the car, its a crapshoot. I dont want to pull an unknown trans, pull my trans, install unknown trans into my car then test, only to find out it doesnt work either and have to do this all over again. Thats not a good plan. thanks anyway.
4. I could get one from www.car-part.com- These transmission generally work if you get one this way. the junk yard does have record of milage and might even be able to tell you the cars condition. These transmission go from 550-800 in my local area. Again, this is another crapshoot. For a higher premium, it might work, and if it does not they will give me another one to try. I dont have all month to "try" tranmissions out. its not that fun of a job.
5. I could buy a reman unit for 2000.00.- By time the unit is purchased, shipped, fluids, core returned, its gonna cost 2K. thats how much I paid for this whole car. While i would perfer not to have to do this, it is the only sure-fire way to guarantee i will be right the first time.


So, as far as i can tell, looking for the problem with mine, and then fixing it for a couple hundred bux at which time i will feel like i have certainly found a problem and fixed it seems like the best alternative. I dont know why i keep asking for help to diagnose MY transmission and all i get is "replace it" responces. If you dont know what is wrong, then why bother posting? I need help from experienced trans builders that know what things could fail to give me these symptoms. You know, if this were an engine problem and i had a knocking noise, people would be able to tell me to check bearings, or check lifters. there are things that are known to fail that give those sypmtoms. IF i had a misfire, poeople might tell me to check the spark, or do a compression check, etc. Things to check becuase they are known to fail. Why it is i post a slipping trans problem and the only responce i get is "replace it"? If you dont know, why post? I'm sure someone on here knows what can cause a slipping trans, and they could probably point me in the direction of how to TROUBLESHOOT the issue and FIX the problem. not just throw an unknown trans at it.. thats rediculous.

Seriously... what can it be?
Torque converter? I can replace that.
pump? I can replace that.
Valve Body? I can replace that.
Solinoids? I can replace those.
Chain? I can replace that
Clutches? I can replace that.
Bands? I can replace that.
Differential? I can replace that.
Etc, etc, etc. you get the point.

So, if someone can help me narrow the problem down to one of these things that i can replace i would be very grateful. Thanks.

question # 1 have you ever rebuilt a trans? if not go get a used one. a transmission rebuild is really only for qualified trans mechanics. its specialty work. (people go to school to learn this job) most here cant rebuild a trans, a few have done it, sure. but its not for everyone.

the tools alone to take the trans apart and put it back together will cost more then a used trans.

and you need to remove the trans from the car anyway to rebuild it, you cant do it in the car. and this trans pump you speak of is behind the torque converter how did you take that out to look at it, see what im saying?

and once again if its slipping like you say its dead!

if theres metal flakes/shards inside it its as dead as dead gets. it needs a full rebuild by someone who knows what they are doing or just swap it out with a used one.

hell im running a used trans myself. mine also blew up, just accept it and move on.

My stock trans is still fine 222K miles. I'd just swap it with a jy one and throw the trans go in it before you install and you should be good.

Originally Posted by scottydoggs

the tools alone to take the trans apart and put it back together will cost more then a used trans.

I am a mechanic (industrial, not automotive). I love buying tools, and im not afraid to take anything apart. I would rather buy tools and have them to do work the rest of my life than to take a shortcut that may or may not work. You statement may deter most people, but i'm not most people.

Originally Posted by scottydoggs

and you need to remove the trans from the car anyway to rebuild it, you cant do it in the car.

Why?

Originally Posted by scottydoggs

and this trans pump you speak of is behind the torque converter how did you take that out to look at it, see what im saying

No i dont see what your saying. Every thing I look at has people calling the thing on the outside of the valve body the "pump". that is what i have inpected. It looks like a pump to me. Are there two pumps on this trans or something? I know most trans have a pump right behind the torque converter, but i assumed on this trans it was on teh back of the valve body since everyone on this site that post pictures of the inside of the trans refer to that pump as the "pump". So, i bounce this one back to you... what are YOU talking about?

Originally Posted by scottydoggs

and once again if its slipping like you say its dead!

if theres metal flakes/shards inside it its as dead as dead gets. it needs a full rebuild by someone who knows what they are doing or just swap it out with a used one.

hell im running a used trans myself. mine also blew up, just accept it and move on.

After viewing this link... Illustrated 4T65E Rebuild : General Chat I just dont think its that big of a deal. it might scare you, but im not scared. I can do the things that are in this write up. not a problem. I will do it with or without your support. I was just hoping people in the know would help guide me down the path. If you dont want to, thats cool. i got books, websites and a GM dealership tech that live two doors down that said to i could rebuild it in the car and to give him a call if i get stuck, becuase he does it all the time. He didnt think it was a big deal either.

im more used to rwd trannys, where the pump is bolted in behind the TC.

at any rate if you think your up to it, by all means go for it!

i cant tell you jack about how inside the trans works, but i do know you will want a new torque converter, because its full of metal, reused it will just pump all that crap back into your trans. right there you need to take the trans out of the car, you also need to clean and blow out every last hole, passage way you can find. and once its spotless, you can rebuild it. you need a air compressor of some sort to do pressure tests as well. all this is a lot easier done on a work bench vs in the car, witch cant really be done.

most who do this also send out the VB to have it rebuild by a qualified tech as well. like i said its specialty work.

good time for upgraded hard parts as well if your into that kinda thing, aka plan on HP upgrades down the line, nows the time to beef up your trans.

guts

any way you slice it, it still needs to come out.


heres a how to. http://www.grandprixforums.net/how-r...ion-35485.html

I am starting to lean that way as well. I dont see the metal shreads anywhere in the clutches area. I'm gonna run these assemblies over to my buddies house with a press and get them open to inspect the frictions and steels. I have a feeling its not that. This stuff all looks really good. The 4th clutches are easy to inpect now and they dont show anything odd. Remember, 4th was one gear i would lose when hot at first, then it cascaded down to all gears.

I am thinking the frictions will be ok. I am thinking the common demoninator is pressure, or the lack of. I think then that either there is a massive leak somewhere, OR the pump is not turning fast enough. I dont see any broken gaskets, my accumulator lines are all in place properly, and the pump looks ok, so now its down to the TC not spinning the pump shaft. That would also explain the metal shreads since i still have not found a source of them anywhere yet.