Thread: F4EAT trans Question (trannyman)

Are you familiar with the F4EAT transmission.

For the 3-4 clutch pack

OEM consists of 3 frictions (.062 I'm guessing as thats how thick my rebuild kits are, the existing ones were down to steel only no friction material left at all), 3 steels (.130), and then the pressure plate (.140)

So using some math, the 3 frictions + 3 steel plates =.576 thick not couting pressure plate.

Transtar Rebuild kit

contains 4 frictions (.062), 4 steels in .071, 4 steels in .091

So I use 4 frictions = .248 thick which leaves me with .328 needed for steel plates. I end up using 2 plates at .091 and 2 plates at .071 which leaves my clutch pack roughly .004 looser than stock.

Repair manual calls for 3-4 clutch pack to have .051-.063 clearance. I had my clutch pack soaked in trans fluid prior to measuring pack clearance. I got around .063 + or - a few thousandths. Would it be better to run a clutch pack in a slightly tighter or slightly looser than recommended? I can always go about probably ordering the 3 thick oem steel plates and only use 3 frictions instead of 4, but I figure the extra friction would probably allow for more torque to be had in that gear.

The car is a 02 zx2

Apparently
.071 steels were used in 90-96
.091 steels were used in 90-97
.130 steels were used in 98-up (used only 3 frictions with this setup)

Another option is to see if they can get some .063 steel and sub that for a .071 steel and add a .091 plate

which would give my .091, .091, .091, .063, my only fear is that .063 plate would be to thin and leaopard spot really easy/warp

Thanks

That is a trip down memory lane! I probably havent been inside of one of these transmissions since 03 and vaguely remember the internals but built quite a few of them before then. I rebuild quite a few CD4E transmissions also but they are a bit different than what you have. Outside of diving into a tech manual- IF I still have one for this trans and based off of the info you are giving me I would swap out a thinner steel for a thicker steel, so 3 .091" steels and 1 .071" steel. It is better to keep the clearance on the tight side as the frictions will wear and compress a bit with age and the clearance will loosen up. If the clearance is too tight it can cause a slight bind feeling on the 2-3 shift and also cause extra drag and hot spots to form on the steel plates but you shouldnt have to worry about that with the 3/1 setup.

Thanks for the advice trannyman.

I finished the trans today and put it back into the car, and test drove it. I just purchased the car 3 weeks ago for a great price, as the car was sitting for 6 months with a bad trans.

I took it down my street, and the car seemed to drive ok, but the car wouldn't creep forward at all when you took your foot off the brake. Normally most cars creep forward when you take your foot of the brake. So I turn on to a somewhat busy rd, and at around 40 mph and under pretty heavy acceleartion, the car seemed to wheel hop for a second. From their it seemed like the trans was starting to slip and required more gas to keep it going. Well I get it back to my place and am a little baffled whats up with the trans as I rebuilt everything and installed the revised transgo pump valve, with a transgo shift kit with valve body spacer plate revisions, as well as a new sonnax boost valve assembly.

I took out my snap on scanner and was searching for any codes and making sure all the solenoids were working and they were.

I decided to put the car in neutral and pull the ebrake when I noticed the ebrake handle felt extremely easy to pull up. It turns out something broke in the rear drums as my buddy and I couldn't even push the car in neutral and that was trying to push it down a hill LOL.

I'm hoping its the brakes which caused the tranny to have issues. As the only other issue I can forsee is I put the valve body together with the new gaskets, only to realize the transgo kit recommended drilling a few of the clutch feeds bigger with their included drill bits. So I had to reopen the valve body after I already had bolted the valve body together. I don't think that would cause a real issue, but I'm a trans noob so what do I know.

When I took the trans apart, the 2-4 band was toast, and the 3-4 frictions looked like a steel plate as their was no friction material on them at all. Not to mention the forward one way clutch hub did not freewheel at all in the counterclockwise condition, it was completely siezed. It looked like the band completely tempered/burned the metal, so I ended up buying the replacement parts used on ebay for pretty cheap. I wonder if the brake issues caused the original owner to blow his trans?

Any progress with the Ebrake? That will definately put a lot of extra strain on the trans! I wash looking for an older tech manual the other day and came across my F4EAT book and briefed through it quick and remembered that this trans uses a TV cable which controls line pressure. This needs to be adjusted with a pressure gauge hooked up to set properly so if the cable has been removed or not adjusted properly it can definately cause the trans to slip and burn up

Well I fixed the rear brakes of the 02 zx2. The drums weren't to bad but I replaced them along with new shoes and a whole new brake spring hardware kit. The E-brake mechanism in each drum was rusted tight, I ended up needing a hammer and pb blaster and it took 10 min to free each side. I took a dremel wire wheel and cleaned up the rust and used some brake grease and the brakes work great now.

Trans unfortunately still seems to have an issue. I ordered a Mac Tools transmission pressure gauge set so I can check the psi in the test ports. I think the TV cable you speak of is the 4 solenoid valve body design, which mine uses the 5 solenoid valve body.

Trannyman, I opened up my valve body after I rebuilt it a week later so I could install my transgo spacer plate modifications (valvebody was just sitting on work bench and wasn't installed in trans). Do you think that gasket could be leaking and cause the trans to have issues.

I also installed a precision torque converter, I know the chances are slim but how would I know if I recieved a bad/defective torque converter?

This ATSG F4EAT blue rebuild manual sucks compared to the ATSG 4t65e manual. They have pictures in here that don't exactly match the trans, and the valve body pics are different as they show picks with KIA valvebody as well as mazda valve body because they all used the F4EAT trans. They even show the TV adjustment that you were talking about. These valve body gaskets are tricky as well because they aren't lable top and bottom and each side is different for the spacer plate, and their are a total of 4 casted valve body parts, 3 spacer plates then 6 valve body gaskets that all need to be installed on the right side to work properly.

Trannyman check this link out. I installed this boost valve assembly and look at the diagram on the bottom of the 2nd page. I installed it for the f4eat trans without TV adjustment. They mention a note in the bottom that says

http://sonnax.com/instructions/74846-01K-IN.pdf

To allow full time lube/converter feed, drill through casting at "X" with a .055 drill. I never did this, this wouldn't have anything to do with the trans would it?

Tomorrow when the gauge shows up, I'm going to try and post some pressure readings, and verify that I have the transmission range switch setup properly, as I didn't use an ohm meter or anything.

Autozones site says:

Fig. Attach an ohmmeter to terminals A and B on the transmission range switch

D.Adjust the switch by rotating the switch housing on the manual control lever until there is no continuity between the terminals.
E.Hold the switch in place, then tighten its retaining bolts to 70-95 inch lbs. (8-11 Nm).
F.Remove the ohmmeter and attach the switch electrical connection.
G.Place the manual control shift outer lever in position and tighten its retaining nut to 33-47 ft. lbs. (44-64 Nm).

Well I'll be taking the trans back out tomorrow and probably have it opened up and see if I can figure out where this rebuild went wrong.

The weird part is the trans seemed to drive ok for the 1st 3 miles or so. Well I got my tranny pressure gauge and I recorded the following pressure via the line pressure port.

ATSG recommended Idle values
D,2,1,idle = 53-65 psi ( actual was around 70 psi cold)
R idle = 85-107 psi (actual was 140 cold)


ATSG recommended Stall values
D,2,1 stall 136-155 psi (actual was around 150 psi)
R stall 220-253 psi (actual was 310 psi)

So that seems to tell me the hydraulic system is ok/pump ok and something is wrong in the inside of the trans.

I jacked the car up today and tried the the drive gears (and I'll post a video of this)

The reverse doesn't seem to work at all now, and when you attempt to give gas and the engine gets to about 2k the engine bogs and seems like its under extreme load. Which leads me to believe something was assembled wrong in the guts of the trans. I also had my buddy try to spin the tires in reverse by hand. He took the one side and I took the other side, and the tires wouldn't move at all in reverse, so I think somethings binding up in the trans.

each vid is 25 mb (vehicle is in D)

Imageshack - mvi0152

Imageshack - mvi0153

I'm so baffled right now

I'm getting much better taking out the trans from this car, got it out in under 3 hrs. I cracked open the trans and I noticed some friction material already in the trans pan and magnets, as long as some of that stuff in the filter.

I bought a used sun gear drum which looked great compared to the original 95k sun gear drum. Now after 10 miles the drum is now burned on the outside and look at the oneway clutch in the center. It looks like the one way clutch drum almost welded itself to the sun gear drum and pieces of metal are missing from it.

Old sun gear drum is on left side with one way clutch race, ect. While the used one I installed is on the right side. Unfortunately I didn't take apart the other used one since it spun freely and locked clockwise, unlike my original one.

Pics now

.......................Low/Reverse friction (already look damaged/burned)



............................Original 95k on Left used one on Right



............................Original sprag assembly beat to hell



...........................Replacement used sprag in trans for 10 miles or less



.........................Notice the burned center on the used one which was in trans for less than 10 miles

Did you air check all of the clutch packs when you put the trans back together? Did you flush the cooler out and make sure fluid flows through it ok? It sounds like your valve body was ok but I would definately go over that again. Also on not of the pressure stuff and the cable- thanks for mentioning your does not have the cable. Did you replace the solenoid in the trans that controls pressure? Did you check the band clearance? Is the apply piston ok and did it air check ok? I know there is some minor damage to the parts but you may want to stack things back together in the case and air check everything if you havent already tried this as this will aid in finding excessive leaks. Your pressure numbers looked good and arent way below what they should be and they often very a bit off of the specs so I agree with the fact that something has to be off inside and this is where air-checking each apply element will help.

I think I figured out my trans issue. I'll know tomorrow when I drop it back in the car. The transgo shift kit was a bit more in depth than the one for the 4t65e. Well they end up giving you all new checkballs for the valve body and they are all the same size so I ended up using them all since I ended up losing a few of mine. It turns out the size of the checkballs transgo includes in the kit are 1/4 in or (.250) while the oem one are .236. There is a note in the transgo kit that states you can use all their checkballs except the one for the bathtub. The bathtub in my valvebody is the Low/Reverse Shuttle ball. I think this is why it burned my Sun gear drum and damaged the one way outer clutch.

That would also explain why the car wouldn't creap forward when you took your foot off the brake.

Oh yeah I air checked all the clutch packs before I put the trans together, except for 3-4 which I don't own the adapter for. I replaced the EPC solenoid along with the Tcc solenoid. I could spin the sun gear drum with band applied so that checked out, they note that if you can't move it by hand you might have grind the pin a little.

Trango kit on this one recommended: drilling holes in the stator support, drilling accumulator plate, d-ring instead of accumulator teflon seals, then the usual diffferent springs,

Sounds like you are on the right track. If the Lo/Reverse clutch pack stay partially applied that would explain everything, including the partially burnt frictions since they were trying to hold when the should have been off which puts the trans in a bind. The Transgo kits for the 4T65E are about the most generic kit they offer and the easiest to install. They provide a few helpful tips and such but there isnt near the problems with these transmissions than what other transmissions have. I really feel the whole accumulator setup was just used over from the original Thrasher/Transgo kits and they slightly altered it and realized that it can be used in every day stock vehicles without bad side effects and helps shorten shifts which is one of the biggest problems on a stock 4T65E. Almost all of their other kits are pretty involving and in depth.

I put the trans in and finished just as the sun went down. While the car was jacked up in the air, I put the car in D and the wheels turned when I let off the brake so that was good. However that damn reverse I think might still be jacked up. I put the car in reverse, and the tires didn't spin when I let off the brake (didn't apply any gas). So I put the car back in park and turned off the engine. I had my brother and myself both grab a wheel and try to spin it in reverse and it didn't appear to move in the reverse direction. I said screw it and closed up for tonight.

I'm going to look at it tomorrow morning. I need to figure out what mechanically in this trans would prevent the car from spinning in the reverse direction. Would a tight 2-4 band on the sun gear prevent the trans from moving in reverse?

The 2-4 band (only band in trans), I was able to spin the sun gear drum by hand (I did put some trans fluid around the drum where the band meets it for ease of installation).

im puzzled with how difficult it loks to rebuild my trans ha

my 4t65e went together with no issues as well. I'll be breaking mine open to fix my sprag and change out my frictions and take a look at my torsen.

Well I'm going to pull the trans since again since my buddy and I couldn't spin the tires in reverse with the car jacked up in the air. You could spin the tires forward in reverse and neutral but couldn't spin them in reverse. So I'm thinking that sprag assembly I bought used is the issue. When the guy inspected the sprag (ebay seller), he could have potentially flipped it on accident when he installed. I should have checked it but I just threw the piece in., I do know it freewheeled and was smooth, but I didn't mentally make a note of which way it freewheeled.

This is the forward sprag which mounts between the forward clutch hub and the coast clutch hub.

This time I'm going to be smart and pop those cv shafts back in with the transmission out of the car and spin through all gear ranges before I put the trans back in.

I got the trans out this time from start to finish in 1 hr 55 min, which means I've taken this trans out to many times.

I checked the forward sprag that sits between the forward clutch hub and the coastal clutch hub and it spins in the correct direction as noted in the ATSG manual.

It states: THE FORWARD CLUTCH HUB MUST FREEWHEEL COUNTER CLOCKWISE AND LOCK CLOCKWISE WHEN HOLDING THE OVERRUN CLUTCH HUB.

So if I hold the coastal clutch hub in the palm of my left hand, I should be able to take my right and and sping the forward clutch hub counterclockwise and it should lock in the clockwise position. Which it does.

Theirs only 1 other sprag assembly in the trans, and that is the big one way clutch (pic 642)

The ATSG states: CAUTION: THE ONE-WAY CLUTCH CAN BE INSTALLED IMPROPERLY. BE CERTAIN THAT AFTER INSTALLING THE ONE-WAY CLUTCH, YOU CAN ROTATE THE CARRIER BY HAND IN A COUNTERCLOCKWISE DIRECTION WHILE WORKING FROM THE REAR SIDE OF THE TRANSAXLE. IF THE ONE-WAY CLUTCH IS INSTALLED IMPROPERLY, GEAR RANGES MAY NOT FUNCTION OR THE GEARTRAIN MAY LOCK UP. THIS MAY CAUSE OVERHEATING OF THE TRANSAXLE AND UNNECESSARY OVERHAULING OF THE UNIT.

So to me that mean working from the pump side which is the side of the trans that you rebuild from. You are suppose to be able to spin the plannetary carrier counterclockwise and lock clockwise which it does.