Thread: High mileage transmission, change fluid or not?

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  1. #1 High mileage transmission, change fluid or not? 
    Donating Users NotEnoughGPs's Avatar
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    4T65E transmission experience needed here, please!
    I own a 2002 Grand Prix with the L36 engine and 4T65E trans. I am the only driver of the car which I have owned since new, the mileage is at 241,000. I have never replaced the transmission fluid. This GP is a daily driver, gets very little downtime, and in recent years, I have put on around 25,000 miles or more, which is a lot of miles driven yearly for such an old car (THANK YOU Pontiac).
    The engine has a HV3, and the car is in above average condition overall, and I plan to keep it running as long as it will go.
    The transmission has a slow shift between 1-2. It used to slam into the gears way back when it had 80,000 miles, but I had someone make changes to the PCM, so it does not do that anymore. There is n
    o shift kit in the trans, but I have one and want to install it. The transmission pan has never been dropped, so I do not know if there are metal shavings or pieces in the pan.
    So, I want to drain the trans fluid and put in new Dexron 3 fluid. But someone recently pointed out that on high mileage transmissions, one should not replace the fluid as that
    can cause the transmission to start slipping.
    So, should I change the trans fluid or not? And should I install the shift kit?
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  2. #2 Re: High mileage transmission, change fluid or not? 
    Killa Bee Scottydoggs's Avatar
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    if its not slipping now, drop the pan, install the shift kit, then add a qt of some kind of trans medix for the hell of it, then fill with new tranny fluid.

    98 Buick Regal GS, F body brakes, Caddy STS wheels, tinted tails L36 bottom end, lightly ported heads, 1.95 roller rockers, headers, gen 5 N* 3.0 pulley, FSIC, 42 lb injectors, a BrandonHall rebuilt trans, DHP tuned and AEM water/Meth injection https://goo.gl/gpV5kW
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  3. #3 Re: High mileage transmission, change fluid or not? 
    Turbo is the way to go. Fivefingerdeathpunch's Avatar
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    I wouldn't even want to touch it, too risky if you ask me.

    If anything I would suck a few quarts of fluid out the dipstick tube and drop a bottle of lucas in there with 2-3 quarts of new fluid and call it a day.

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  4. #4 Re: High mileage transmission, change fluid or not? 
    GTP Level Member buickman104's Avatar
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    What is the current condition of the transmission fluid in there now? Color? Smell? etc? That information would help.
    2000 Bronze Metallic GTP
    Power :Gen V, 3.6 pulley, 3 inch down pipe, Power log, FWI,and DHP Power Tuner,
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  5. #5 Re: High mileage transmission, change fluid or not? 
    Donating Users NotEnoughGPs's Avatar
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    I am planning to drop the pan Monday or Tuesday. I will provide details soon after I do so. I am curious to see just how bad it is, since there is no slippage. As I noted, there is a slow shift from 1-2, but it does shift as long as I ease up off the gas pedal. After a spirited drive today, there is a slight shudder as it shifts into 2nd. The shifts from 2-3 and 3-4 seem fine, but lately, something just does not feel right about the shifts. Guess I am just scared that the transmission is on its way out.
    I know changing the trans fluid in this GP is long, long overdue. If I get through this without having to drop the transmission and replace parts, I will consider myself lucky.
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  6. #6 Re: High mileage transmission, change fluid or not? 
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    Take and wipe the trans dipstick on a clean white towel and see what color it is. Also see what it smells like. If it smells burnt and has a brown/black color on the towel then you may just be looking for a used trans at this point. That's a lot of miles on that old fluid so it's probably not helping things and I'd bet the filter is clogged up by now. The issue at 80K sounds like they may have upped the line pressure to get around the P1181 max adapt shift code (the slamming into gears thing).

    If it were mine, I'd drop the pan and install the shift kit, change the filter and refill it with a bottle of Lucas + Dex 3 to top it up and see what you get, but would also be looking for a used trans in good shape as a backup. These things aren't known to be strong in stock form and with that amount of mileage it's a roll of the dice at this point. Just my .02
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  7. #7 Re: High mileage transmission, change fluid or not? 
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    Please take a second look before putting any DEX III in your car. DEX III is no longer licensed by GM. DEX III no longer has to meet any quality or content or formula standards. I can legally take used motor oil, dye it red, and put in in a bottle and sell it as DEX III.

    Put DEX VI in your car. Has major improvements over DEX III, and is licensed by GM to exact standards. Wal-Mart has a great price on DEX VI.
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  8. #8 Re: High mileage transmission, change fluid or not? 
    Killa Bee Scottydoggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kerr View Post
    Please take a second look before putting any DEX III in your car. DEX III is no longer licensed by GM. DEX III no longer has to meet any quality or content or formula standards. I can legally take used motor oil, dye it red, and put in in a bottle and sell it as DEX III.

    Put DEX VI in your car. Has major improvements over DEX III, and is licensed by GM to exact standards. Wal-Mart has a great price on DEX VI.

    get real dude, dex 3 is fine, dex 5 is to thin for older trannys that are beat up. the crap people come up with is mind blowing.

    98 Buick Regal GS, F body brakes, Caddy STS wheels, tinted tails L36 bottom end, lightly ported heads, 1.95 roller rockers, headers, gen 5 N* 3.0 pulley, FSIC, 42 lb injectors, a BrandonHall rebuilt trans, DHP tuned and AEM water/Meth injection https://goo.gl/gpV5kW
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  9. #9 Re: High mileage transmission, change fluid or not? 
    GT Level Member willie14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottydoggs View Post
    get real dude, dex 3 is fine, dex 5 is to thin for older trannys that are beat up. the crap people come up with is mind blowing.

    I had a guy tell me the same thing about dexcool, that if I used the regular prestone green I would blow my engine lol **** seems to be running strong n doin just fine...

    I just did my pan drop, filter and i customized a shift kit for my trans. Used dexIII and all seems well. Just make sure when u take the accumulator apart that the springs n shims are seated correctly inside piston bore. Also mark the 3 steellines before u pull them off because they are only held into place by the accumulator being bolted down. I also cleaned up the pan and mating surfaces with scotchbrite as well as reused old gasket...no leaks no probs...

    I used 2 quarts well, 1 1/2 of Lucas and 6 of dexIII and my trans shifts like it was brand new now. 114k on original trans with that being first trans fluid change.....

    You will get a mixed bag of comments of ideas from everyone here, you take the good and the bad and you try and make the best decision possible. If that trans is on its way out then what do u have to lose besides 50$.....
    98 Grand prix SE to GTP conversion( in works). Full body conversion in works, drilled n slotted rotors, ceramics, all new suspension, custom CAI, NGK wires/Vpower plugs, SD headers, 180 Tstat, AND A WHOLE BUNCH OF PAINT BABY!! Tuned by E&J performance.
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  10. #10 Re: High mileage transmission, change fluid or not? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottydoggs View Post
    get real dude, dex 3 is fine, dex 5 is to thin for older trannys that are beat up. the crap people come up with is mind blowing.
    There is no such thing as DEX 5. DEX VI is the only transmission fluid that GM dealers are allowed to use when DEX III is called for. DEX VI is a super superior fluid over the fluid formally known as DEX III. DEX VI is the fluid that solved the trans chatter issues in AWD GM vehicles like the Olds Bravada.

    On my 2001 SSEi, I had major shifting issues at 80,000 miles. I updated the fluid to DEX VI, the trans shifting issues became minuscule, and the trans is still going at 265,000 miles.
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  11. #11 Re: High mileage transmission, change fluid or not? 
    Killa Bee Scottydoggs's Avatar
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    says you, dexVi is thinner, you use what ever it says on your dip stick for older used tranny thats got beat up fluid already. many say its fine, many here have lost the tranny after a swap to dex VI. i use what im supposed to use, and end of story.

    no one is marking dex 3 and using used motor oil, get a grip. its all up to standard.

    98 Buick Regal GS, F body brakes, Caddy STS wheels, tinted tails L36 bottom end, lightly ported heads, 1.95 roller rockers, headers, gen 5 N* 3.0 pulley, FSIC, 42 lb injectors, a BrandonHall rebuilt trans, DHP tuned and AEM water/Meth injection https://goo.gl/gpV5kW
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  12. #12 Re: High mileage transmission, change fluid or not? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottydoggs View Post
    says you, dexVi is thinner, you use what ever it says on your dip stick for older used tranny thats got beat up fluid already. many say its fine, many here have lost the tranny after a swap to dex VI. i use what im supposed to use, and end of story.

    no one is marking dex 3 and using used motor oil, get a grip. its all up to standard.
    The issue with your course of action is there is no longer a GM approved or authorized DEX III fluid. So when you say you are putting DEX III in your car because that is what your dipstick states, you have no idea what is being put in there. Anyone can bottle anything and call it DEX III.

    I have never ever heard of an instance where DEX VI caused performance issues or trans failure. Not one.

    Maybe you should take a look at this:
    From a GM tech bulletin:

    Although DEXRON-VI (fig. 1) was introduced into production starting with 2006 model year vehicles (see bulletin 04-07-30-037D), there are still some misunderstandings about it. Here are some facts to help clear up these misunderstandings.
    Since GM introduced the first service-fill specification for automatic transmission fluid (ATF) in 1949, it has been necessary periodically to upgrade the specification as part of a continuous improvement strategy. The upgrading process ensures that available service fill fluids are of an appropriate quality for use in transmissions that have been designed around the improved factory fill fluid performance.

    IMPORTANT: As with previous upgrades, DEXRON-VI fluids are designed to be backward compatible with earlier transmission hardware. But more important, earlier type fluids are NOT FORWARD COMPATIBLE with transmissions that were designed to use DEXRON-VI.
    DEXRON-VI can be used in any proportion in past model vehicles equipped with an automatic transmission, in place of DEXRON-III (for instance, topping off the fluid in the event of a repair or fluid change). DEXRON-VI is also compatible with any former version of DEXRON for use in automatic transmissions.

    TIP: Simply topping off the fluid is adequate, but a full drain and replacement is preferred, to obtain the full benefit.

    IMPORTANT: DEXRON-VI Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) is the only approved fluid for warranty repairs for GM transmissions requiring DEXRON-III or prior DEXRON transmission fluids.

    TIP: Any vehicle that previously used DEXRON-III for a manual transmission or transfer case should now use p/n 88861800 (88861801 in Canada) Manual Transmission and Transfer Case Fluid. And power steering systems should now use p/n 89020661 (89021183 in Canada) Power Steering Fluid.

    TIP: Since some early bulletins were issued, further validation has taken place and certain transfer cases and manual transmissions now DO use DEXRON-VI, so it's important to refer to the owner manual for appropriate recommendations.
    All licenses for DEXRON-III expired at the end of 2006 and will not be renewed. Fluids sold in the market after that date bearing claims such as "suitable for use in DEXRON-III applications" or similar wording should be avoided, because 'DEXRON-III' fluids are no longer checked and policed by GM and therefore may not be the originally tested and approved formulation.

    ADVANTAGES OF DEXRON-VI

    GM uses an ATF for factory fill that provides significantly improved performance in terms of friction durability, viscosity stability, aeration and foam control, and oxidation resistance. In addition, the fluid has the potential to enable improved fuel economy and extended drain intervals. The service fill specification for a fluid meeting these standards is designated as DEXRON-VI.

    When compared with earlier automatic transmission fluids, DEXRON-VI offers these improvements and benefits:

    - enhanced performance of both new and older transmissions
    - longer ATF life (160,000 km/100,000 miles normal, or 80,000 km/50,000 miles severe). It is important to refer to the owner manual because certain vehicles recommend a normal service drain interval of 150,000 miles (240,000 km).
    - consistent shift quality throughout the life of the transmission
    - extended transmission life.

    To achieve these benefits, DEXRON-VI offers significant improvements in these operating characteristics:

    Friction Stability (improved 100%) -- Friction describes how the fluid behaves when transmission clutches or bands are engaged. A fluid with poor friction characteristics leads to grabbing, chattering and slipping (fig. 2).





    DEXRON-VI also offers a 120% improvement in clutch durability (fig. 3).




    A DEXRON-III
    B DEXRON-VI

    A Clutch operated with DEXRON-III
    B Clutch operated with DEXRON-VI

    Viscosity Stability (greatly improved) -- Viscosity is a description of how thick or thin a fluid is at various temperatures. In a hydraulic system, components can function sluggishly or improperly when viscosity is wrong. As determined by comparison testing (fig. 4),



    DEXRON-VI maintains an almost constant viscosity over time, while the viscosity of DEXRON-III degrades considerably.

    A DEXRON-III
    B DEXRON-VI

    Foaming Resistance (improved 150%) -- Automatic transmission fluid may contain air in three forms -- dissolved, entrained (aeration) and foam. Oil containing air doesn't do anything very well -- lubrication is affected, heat transfer in affected and pressures are unstable. Anti-foam additives are used to control and limit the effects of air in the fluid (fig. 5).



    A DEXRON-III foam test
    B DEXRON-VI foam test

    Oxidation Resistance (improved 100%) -- Oxidation describes the length of time it takes for a fluid to reach the end of its useful life. Oxidation generally occurs more quickly at higher temperatures (fig. 6).




    And oxidation has an effect on how long a fluid can be used before replacement is necessary.

    A Aftermarket fluid oxidation test
    B DEXRON-VI oxidation test

    TIP: Just because another auto maker does not require use of DEXRON-VI, this does not imply that their required fluid is in any way inferior to or better than DEXRON-VI. It simply means that the other auto maker has established its own, unique fluid requirements. Their transmissions may be built with different materials, and may be designed to perform in different ways, neither of which is necessarily inferior to or better than GM's transmissions, just different. Variables include the material used for friction surfaces, the material used for reaction surfaces, the types of control mechanisms and the characteristics of the factory fill fluid. This means that each manufacturer must tailor their transmission fluid requirements to meet the needs of their own transmissions. And a fluid may cause entirely different performance when installed into transmissions of different designs.

    COUNTERFEIT PRODUCTS

    Beware products that claim to be DEXRON-VI but are not; for instance, some products claim to be multi-purpose. And beware the products which claim to provide DEXRON-VI characteristics when added to other ATFs. Unlicensed products have not been tested by GM to determine whether they meet GM's specifications.

    ADDITIVES

    DEXRON-VI is formulated to meet and exceed GM's specifications and requirements. Additives are not needed and are not recommended.
    The best thing that can happen when using an additive is that it will do nothing. At worst, an additive can ruin the transmission.

    DEALING WITH CONTAMINATION


    Anything but DEXRON-VI in the automatic transmission is considered a contaminant. Typically, a customer or other service facility may add fluids other than DEXRON-VI. This includes aftermarket additives -- they are not needed and should not be used. In case like this:

    - drain the transmission fluid
    - flush the system with DEXRON-VI (NOT solvent)
    - fill the system with the correct amount of DEXRON-VI.

    FLUSHING

    Many aftermarket flushing systems rely on solvents, which essentially may be considered contaminants. The effects of these contaminants may lead to transmission failure.
    Refer to bulletin 02-07-30-052E and also document 1601517 for the complete story on using the Automatic Transmission Oil Cooler Flush And Flow Test Essential Tool J 45096 TransFlow. Here are some highlights.
    Two significant features of the J 45096 are (1) that it uses DEXRON-VI, not solvent, as a flushing agent, and (2) that it injects high pressure air into the fluid stream to agitate the ATF oil to enhance removal of contaminated ATF and debris.

    TIP: It is important to flush the system in both directions (back-flush and forward-flush). There are instructions in SI to explain how to make the proper hookups for both directions.
    There are also instructions in SI explaining which adapters to use for various transmissions.

    TIP: It is necessary to fabricate adapters for Vibe, Wave and Aveo, using instructions in SI. Also, although these vehicles have a slightly different transmission oil requirement, the small amount of DEXRON-VI remaining in the system after flushing is compatible.

    In addition to the flushing capability, the J 45096 also has a digital flow meter to check and indicate the flow capability of the ATF oil cooling system.
    Oil temperature has a direct bearing on flow rate, so SI explains several ways to ensure that the DEXRON-VI in the storage reservoir is suitably warm for an accurate test. And there is a table showing the minimum flow rate at various temperatures and for both steel and aluminum coolers.
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  13. #13 Re: High mileage transmission, change fluid or not? 
    Killa Bee Scottydoggs's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Mike Kerr;1450468]
    I have never ever heard of an instance where DEX VI caused performance issues or trans failure. Not one.[/QUOTE

    and do you know why? cause you just joined the site and have not seen it happen to others around the country like we all have. you can do what ever you like. not my car.

    and lets be clear here, im talking about a high mile tranny with burnt fluid. dex VI is not for you. IT IS THINNER. and thats not good for your more then 1/2 dead tranny is is?

    if you did the swap to a tranny thats in good shape it should be a non issue.

    98 Buick Regal GS, F body brakes, Caddy STS wheels, tinted tails L36 bottom end, lightly ported heads, 1.95 roller rockers, headers, gen 5 N* 3.0 pulley, FSIC, 42 lb injectors, a BrandonHall rebuilt trans, DHP tuned and AEM water/Meth injection https://goo.gl/gpV5kW
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  14. #14 Re: High mileage transmission, change fluid or not? 
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    oh and as far as flushing, DONT FVCKING DO IT! thats a dead tranny, like while on the ramps still before you put it on the ground , (you just killed it) for a high mile tranny with bad fluid.

    98 Buick Regal GS, F body brakes, Caddy STS wheels, tinted tails L36 bottom end, lightly ported heads, 1.95 roller rockers, headers, gen 5 N* 3.0 pulley, FSIC, 42 lb injectors, a BrandonHall rebuilt trans, DHP tuned and AEM water/Meth injection https://goo.gl/gpV5kW
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  15. #15 Re: High mileage transmission, change fluid or not? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottydoggs View Post
    oh and as far as flushing, DONT FVCKING DO IT! thats a dead tranny, like while on the ramps still before you put it on the ground , (you just killed it) for a high mile tranny with bad fluid.
    For a poster with 34,000+ posts, I am surprised at what you are typing. Yes, I am new to this site, I was on a site with Bill Boost for many years, just bought a Grand Prix after driving Bonnevilles for the past 20+ years.

    What are you talking about a flush? I doubt the OP has a flush unit. What is being discussed is a fluid replacement, which can include dropping the pan and/ or siphoning through the auto trans dipstick (a long but very easy and simple process).

    Seems when someone shows technical data that conflicts with your posts, you bash rather than back up your post to show the technical data is wrong.

    Best wishes, Mike
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  16. #16 Re: High mileage transmission, change fluid or not? 
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    try reading what you copy and paste then, if you dont know what a trans flush is or how to do it, well sorry then.

    and ill tell Bill you said hi when i talk to him later on, cause we talk all the time

    98 Buick Regal GS, F body brakes, Caddy STS wheels, tinted tails L36 bottom end, lightly ported heads, 1.95 roller rockers, headers, gen 5 N* 3.0 pulley, FSIC, 42 lb injectors, a BrandonHall rebuilt trans, DHP tuned and AEM water/Meth injection https://goo.gl/gpV5kW
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  17. #17 Re: High mileage transmission, change fluid or not? 
    GT Level Member willie14's Avatar
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    Lol gotta love desputes...
    98 Grand prix SE to GTP conversion( in works). Full body conversion in works, drilled n slotted rotors, ceramics, all new suspension, custom CAI, NGK wires/Vpower plugs, SD headers, 180 Tstat, AND A WHOLE BUNCH OF PAINT BABY!! Tuned by E&J performance.
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  18. #18 Re: High mileage transmission, change fluid or not? 
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    I did a fluid change in my 97 at 154k miles I used Dex VI and a new WIC filter, and when the car would downshift it would shudder and slam into gear. After about 10k miles the filter plugged up and the fluid was very black. I put in other filter, some Lucas and some Dex III. When I lost 4th gear in the trans at 182k miles the Dex III was still red. Just my 2 cents.

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  19. #19 Re: High mileage transmission, change fluid or not? 
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    I switched to Dexron VI in 2009 for my tranny fluid changes at 88,000 miles and I am coming up on 200,000 miles with the 4T65E...zero issues. The shifts are perfect and no particles in the pan or clogged filter when I do my changes at 25,000 mile intervals.............Pan is very clean
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  20. #20 Re: High mileage transmission, change fluid or not? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kerr View Post
    Please take a second look before putting any DEX III in your car.
    Strange. DexIII is in my car and has been for the past 6 years I've owned it. Pretty sure the previous owners receipts that I have show that it had DEXIII long before I owned it.

    Now that I've taken a second look, what do I do? Nothing!
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  5. Transmission fluid change
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    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 10-06-2008, 03:42 PM
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