Thread: F-Body/L26 fusion?

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  1. #1 F-Body/L26 fusion? 
    GTX Level Member wstefan20's Avatar
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    *Note* please see question at end! I need advice!

    While at the junkyard, I had a crazy thought.

    I've heard a few people say the lower intake for the f- Body flows really well, but the upper stinks. I've also seen the gains made by having a larger plenum and short runners especially with boost (hv3). So why can't we have the best of both worlds?

    The gasket for the f- Body is flat and covers everything but the ports, essentially mimicking the hv3. I also noticed the bolt pattern kind of looks similar...

    So I picked up a full f- Body intake, and courtesy of Selliot's car being torn apart, I test fitted the intake.

    If the two alignment pins are removed on the f- body and drilled and tapped like the rest of the bolt holes, every main bolt for the L26 lines up EXACTLY!



    Obviously, the pcv needs work. for the f- Body, both the front and rear head pcv passages are now left open to vacuum so they'll need to be plugged and pcv routed externally. (I won't detail that here since I have a thread about pcv detailing what's involved).

    The other thing that needs plugged is the egr stove pipe hole since this now is completely open. JB weld works nicely!

    You'll actually cap/ remove the upper pipe for pcv intake on the L26 upper, plug the evap hole or tap for vacuum, and relocate the map sensor (see pcv thread). You can also jb weld the vacuum hole for evap and egr to smooth the airflow. Also, you'll have to plug the vacuum for the old pcv valve.

    The only cutting involved would be the corner where the old pcv valve and map sensor were located on the L26. Since this is blocked now anyhow, you could actually remove this whole fixture if desired.

    The f- body thermostat is located in the upper intake, so you'll have to drill out the hole in the lower intake and drill and tap holes for the thermostat housing, but the clearances are already there, and there's plenty of material to work with. You'd use the stock housing from the L26 lower.

    You would have to plug the camaro throttle body heater passage, much like the ones commonly plugged on the L26 lower.

    The lower and upper physically fit in the car, though you will probably need the camaro tensioner and alternator (we'll see if my Cs144 will fit, but it should; see alternator upgrade thread).

    Side note, if you use labarge's throttle body adapter, you'll need to plug the pcv intake elbow he machines in, since it won't be hooked up. Either way, you'll have to draw fresh air after the maf sensor but before the throttle body (see pcv thread).

    Strange note is on L26,L36,L32, and L67, the rear coolant passages are used and the front are plugged on the lim, but the f- body does the opposite. Not sure if one is better than the other or why both aren't used. I'm assuming the flow is good enough with front or rear.

    Obviously, on a stock n/a car, the gains would probably only be in the top end, if at all, but I'm curious what the gains for turbo are.

    The only thing that keeps me from being able to do this is that the thermostat housing is now on the wrong side of the engine . I've seen several turbo cars with this intake, but no one talks about what hose they use to reach.
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  2. #2 Re: F-Body/L26 fusion? 
    GrandPrix Junkie SgtMarshal's Avatar
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    at one point i was going to go the turbo route. my car is an L67 with an xp cam. I installed an L36 upper and lower, and later an L26 upper. I never went turbo, so it's hard to say if it would have been better on the top end, but I didn't notice any gains with my setup.
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  3. #3 Re: F-Body/L26 fusion? 
    GTX Level Member wstefan20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SgtMarshal View Post
    at one point i was going to go the turbo route. my car is an L67 with an xp cam. I installed an L36 upper and lower, and later an L26 upper. I never went turbo, so it's hard to say if it would have been better on the top end, but I didn't notice any gains with my setup.
    Yeah. I'm honestly surprised how well they match up though and that no one has made an attempt, or a thread about it (or f- body intake at all for that matter).

    Not sure which car this would go on though. I'm still debating what I'm doing with the fiero...
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  4. #4 Re: F-Body/L26 fusion? 
    Killa Bee Scottydoggs's Avatar
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    f body intakes have been used before for turbo's.

    98 Buick Regal GS, F body brakes, Caddy STS wheels, tinted tails L36 bottom end, lightly ported heads, 1.95 roller rockers, headers, gen 5 N* 3.0 pulley, FSIC, 42 lb injectors, a BrandonHall rebuilt trans, DHP tuned and AEM water/Meth injection https://goo.gl/gpV5kW
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  5. #5 Re: F-Body/L26 fusion? 
    Killa Bee Scottydoggs's Avatar
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    Intercooler piping pictures took some searching, but theres a thread with pics.

    98 Buick Regal GS, F body brakes, Caddy STS wheels, tinted tails L36 bottom end, lightly ported heads, 1.95 roller rockers, headers, gen 5 N* 3.0 pulley, FSIC, 42 lb injectors, a BrandonHall rebuilt trans, DHP tuned and AEM water/Meth injection https://goo.gl/gpV5kW
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  6. #6 Re: F-Body/L26 fusion? 
    GTX Level Member wstefan20's Avatar
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  7. #7 Re: F-Body/L26 fusion? 
    GXP Level Member GTPpower's Avatar
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    On a turbo setup, it wont make any difference.


    2001 GTP Drag Car - XPZ, Tischler heads, Upsidedown M90 IC'd, e85, Gen V, 2.3 w/ 5%OD
    2005 F350 6.0 - studded, deleted, tuned
    2001 GTP - cam, headers, nitrous, stock trans - 11.83 @ 116 <$2k in mods - sold
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  8. #8 Re: F-Body/L26 fusion? 
    GTX Level Member wstefan20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTPpower View Post
    On a turbo setup, it wont make any difference.
    I'm not so sure. The turbo ls guys have some solid power gains with different intakes. Though there's only one way to find out!
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  9. #9 Re: F-Body/L26 fusion? 
    GXP Level Member GTPpower's Avatar
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    They don't really see any difference until above 5500 rpms.


    2001 GTP Drag Car - XPZ, Tischler heads, Upsidedown M90 IC'd, e85, Gen V, 2.3 w/ 5%OD
    2005 F350 6.0 - studded, deleted, tuned
    2001 GTP - cam, headers, nitrous, stock trans - 11.83 @ 116 <$2k in mods - sold
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  10. #10 Re: F-Body/L26 fusion? 
    GTX Level Member wstefan20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTPpower View Post
    They don't really see any difference until above 5500 rpms.
    True. You'd probably see a decrease in torque but a large increase in hp above 5300 rpm. After my current rebuilt engine has lasted 10,000 miles, I'm wondering what the redline of a properly blueprinted 3800 really is (and no, intense and zzp engines were not completely blueprinted) with forged internals. If the power gains match up to the ls intakes, could gain up to 50 to with boost in the top end. Idk. Think it could be a cool project.

    At worst case, this intake would perform like an hv3 without having to spend the $150, or like the Holden intake without spending $500 to ship it.
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  11. #11 Re: F-Body/L26 fusion? 
    GXP Level Member GTPpower's Avatar
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    I doubt you'd see any difference. Power is majorly dependent on the turbo. The intake has very little effect on it.


    2001 GTP Drag Car - XPZ, Tischler heads, Upsidedown M90 IC'd, e85, Gen V, 2.3 w/ 5%OD
    2005 F350 6.0 - studded, deleted, tuned
    2001 GTP - cam, headers, nitrous, stock trans - 11.83 @ 116 <$2k in mods - sold
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  12. #12 Re: F-Body/L26 fusion? 
    GXP Level Member Turbocharged400sbc's Avatar
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    our short deck engines have a horrible rotating assembly geometry for high rpm breathing. its suited for low/midrange Tq youd have to use an early tall deck engine with SII compression height pistons to get rods long enough to slow the piston acceleration and deceleration rrates/angularity and improve high rpm breathing.

    build it for tq and you get HP, build it for HP and your Tq curve will be ****
    ~James~ Psychotic Gearhead
    projects: 84 Cressida waGN~ 90 LN3 3800, equal length headers, T70, 89 700r4, misc parts,
    1994 Oldsmobile 442 (462ci-4wd-2 engines) L67/4t80e^2,
    00 Turbo Regal 608 fwhp 575ftlbs at 5500rpm, 98 WhippledRiv, 97 GTP
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  13. #13 Re: F-Body/L26 fusion? 
    GXP Level Member Turbocharged400sbc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTPpower View Post
    I doubt you'd see any difference. Power is majorly dependent on the turbo. The intake has very little effect on it.
    ...except for varying where the lean/rich cylinders are.....5,6 run leaner than 1,2 on the TR
    ~James~ Psychotic Gearhead
    projects: 84 Cressida waGN~ 90 LN3 3800, equal length headers, T70, 89 700r4, misc parts,
    1994 Oldsmobile 442 (462ci-4wd-2 engines) L67/4t80e^2,
    00 Turbo Regal 608 fwhp 575ftlbs at 5500rpm, 98 WhippledRiv, 97 GTP
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  14. #14 Re: F-Body/L26 fusion? 
    GXP Level Member GTPpower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turbocharged400sbc View Post
    ...except for varying where the lean/rich cylinders are.....5,6 run leaner than 1,2 on the TR
    Is that due to air or fuel distribution?


    2001 GTP Drag Car - XPZ, Tischler heads, Upsidedown M90 IC'd, e85, Gen V, 2.3 w/ 5%OD
    2005 F350 6.0 - studded, deleted, tuned
    2001 GTP - cam, headers, nitrous, stock trans - 11.83 @ 116 <$2k in mods - sold
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  15. #15 Re: F-Body/L26 fusion? 
    GTX Level Member wstefan20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turbocharged400sbc View Post
    our short deck engines have a horrible rotating assembly geometry for high rpm breathing. its suited for low/midrange Tq youd have to use an early tall deck engine with SII compression height pistons to get rods long enough to slow the piston acceleration and deceleration rrates/angularity and improve high rpm breathing.

    build it for tq and you get HP, build it for HP and your Tq curve will be ****
    Interesting! So you're saying that our overall stroke is too short to support airflow at high rpms?
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  16. #16 Re: F-Body/L26 fusion? 
    GTX Level Member wstefan20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turbocharged400sbc View Post
    ...except for varying where the lean/rich cylinders are.....5,6 run leaner than 1,2 on the TR
    I'm guessing that's due to the fact our throttle body tilts forward towards the rear and a straight plenum tends to throw the air towards the rear and miss the closer runners? I've seen a few intake models and that seemed to be the case.
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  17. #17 Re: F-Body/L26 fusion? 
    GTX Level Member wstefan20's Avatar
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    I think the only really good advantage could be the ability to run a full phenolic spacer unlike any other intakes we have available, still get the hv3 results, and not have to relocate the battery or intake. Though, I'm probably the only one crazy enough to try it!

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  18. #18 Re: F-Body/L26 fusion? 
    GXP Level Member GTPpower's Avatar
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    Once you pressurize the air, normal flow characteristics don't apply as much. There should only be uneven distribution if there is a significant restriction on one of the ports and a lack of plenum volume.


    2001 GTP Drag Car - XPZ, Tischler heads, Upsidedown M90 IC'd, e85, Gen V, 2.3 w/ 5%OD
    2005 F350 6.0 - studded, deleted, tuned
    2001 GTP - cam, headers, nitrous, stock trans - 11.83 @ 116 <$2k in mods - sold
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  19. #19 Re: F-Body/L26 fusion? 
    GTX Level Member wstefan20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTPpower View Post
    Once you pressurize the air, normal flow characteristics don't apply as much. There should only be uneven distribution if there is a significant restriction on one of the ports and a lack of plenum volume.
    Hm. It was my understanding that though the air volume is less of an issue, the even dispersion and flow velocity is still a factor.

    Admittedly I'm an electrical engineer not an aerospace or mechanical engineer so I'm a bit out of my field here.

    However, I do have access to solid works with flow simulation. If I could find a 3D scanner, I could pretty easily analyze the flow pattern.
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  20. #20 Re: F-Body/L26 fusion? 
    GXP Level Member Turbocharged400sbc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTPpower View Post
    Is that due to air or fuel distribution?
    Quote Originally Posted by wstefan20 View Post
    I'm guessing that's due to the fact our throttle body tilts forward towards the rear and a straight plenum tends to throw the air towards the rear and miss the closer runners? I've seen a few intake models and that seemed to be the case.
    inertia is a *****. GN guys have played with this issue since the early days of the UIM power plates, meant to provide flow restriction for more even air distribution to all cylinders. early SI 3800's have a "ski jump" at the end of the TB adaptor where the air enters the plenum. this was changed in later SI production to the more modern low plenum wrapover runner (early are alum, later plastic) manifold design that was eventually applied across the whole range of GM V type engines due to cheapness of molding/die casting. everything is a result of compromises.....no compromise gives you the larger/harder to package Lehmann style intakes and the nearly perfectly even air/fuel distribution.....most modern high performance boosted engines use a variation of it...modified usually for easier injection molding of a plastic unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by wstefan20 View Post
    Interesting! So you're saying that our overall stroke is too short to support airflow at high rpms?
    the whole engine is too short, to save $ and weight, GM circumcised an extra inch off the deck height it means a horrible rod stroke ratio, which means ****ty high rpm cylinder filling and drop in pumping efficiency. readup on rod/stroke ratio and youll see why indycar/high reving engines run a near 2:1 rod/ stroke ratio while our L67 has a horrible 1.5:1
    a hybrid SI/SII would allow for a 1.96:1 ratio....and even then the offset journal crank would make me leery of going over 7k
    ~James~ Psychotic Gearhead
    projects: 84 Cressida waGN~ 90 LN3 3800, equal length headers, T70, 89 700r4, misc parts,
    1994 Oldsmobile 442 (462ci-4wd-2 engines) L67/4t80e^2,
    00 Turbo Regal 608 fwhp 575ftlbs at 5500rpm, 98 WhippledRiv, 97 GTP
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