Thread: Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires?

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  1. #1 Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires? 
    GTP Level Member SuperSport's Avatar
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    As we all know there is a recall out for 3.8L Series II equipped W-Body cars. The theory goes, hot oil from a crappy designed (in my opinion) o-ring style valve cover gasket (versus the proven cork 1/4 inch gasket that has been used for a million years) that lets oil drip onto the exhaust manifold. If enough oil drops below the heat shield and pools up, it can cause a small flame that can spread quickly to engine covers and hood insulators. Im not saying that hot oil cant cause fires in 3.8's. Ive read stories where it has. But the people that documented this said that they saw flames between the radiator and engine, but the flame was small enough where it could be put out, and minimal damage occurs, such as melted plug wires, etc. Of course others did not get to their car in time, and the car still burned.

    But the majority of the engine fires Ive read about on the internet, or have seen on youtube, shows such a violent fire, that bumper covers, tires, and even a Regal's aluminum rim warped because of the high heat of the fire. But on top of all of that, people even reported that their vehicle stalled, then a instant fire erupted. Valve cover gaskets?? Keep reading.

    This sounds to me like it could be fuel line quick disconnects that could be leaking. Even when the car is shut off, fuel pressure gradually goes down, and when there is less pressure, thats when things can leak. If somebody leaves their engine cover on, the fuel can soak up into the pad underneath, and when it becomes saturated, its self explanatory from there. On the cars that stalled, followed by a fire, tells me the o-ring broke, lowering the fuel pressure enough to kill the engine.

    In November 2009 I parked my 01 GT 3.8 with 118,000 miles in the garage for the winter, since my Jeep 4x4 would become the winter driver. On March 15, 2010, I decided to drive the GP again. I open the hood to install the battery. Once I had it installed, I removed the engine cover to check for chewed wires. There were no chewed wires, but there was a fairly strong odor of gasoline. I quickly traced the smell to the quick disconnect at the backside of the intake manifold. If I touched the connection, it would seep gas. And keep in mind I haven't touched the key yet! The car has been dormant for 4 months! Even though the front quick disconnect next to the fuel pressure regulator was dry, touching that also made it weep gas. I decided not to start the car until I did something.

    I sat for hours online looking for O-Rings for the quick disconnects. I quickly found out by searching the internet that GM and their brilliance does not sell O-Rings for the lines, you need to buy the whole line from the rail to the tank. Did not have the time or money for that. I was aware of the write up here on GPF that walks you through changing o-rings for a GTP, but was unclear on where exactly to pick up the o-rings. Since people top-swap and use the existing fuel lines for the GTP fuel rail I knew the O-Rings had to be the same size.

    I finally found a website where somebody posted a part number for an Assortment package of O-Rings made out of Viton. (Viton is a material that is not attacked by gasoline. Never use a plain-old O-ring in anything gasoline related.) You must buy TWO packages of part number 80020 from O-Reillys, or any store that carries the HELP! section. There is only one kind of each size in each box, so get 2 boxes. They are 7.99 each. These WILL fit a GTP too!




    On a 3.8 N/A, there is a black plastic retainer holding in the rings. Once that is picked out, taking care not to scratch it, or the inside walls of the connector, there is a yellow O-Ring, pick it out. There is a white plastic spacer that needs to come out, then a brown O-Ring. When I got the rings into the sunlight and squeezed them, I could see why they were leaking gas.





    Open one box of new rings and put them in a pile, and open the other box and put it in a separate pile. One size will be in each pile, so find the one from each pile that match. Lube the new rings with fresh oil, and they slide right into the connector, remembering the order they went in. New ring>white spacer>new ring>black retainer. (GT only) Repeat this process with the other connector. Note the front connector is smaller than the rear, thus the o-rings are different sizes.

    Plug the connector onto the rail until you hear a snap. Make sure its snug by pulling up. It shouldn't come off. Turn the key on and check for leaks. Start the engine and check for leaks. Shut the engine off and check for leaks. Wait 20 minutes and look again. The next morning, look again. It should be dry. It is recommended to pop off the fuel rail and change the injector o-rings as well.


    This in my opinion, along with changing valve cover gaskets, and fuel injector o-rings can cut down engine fire risk by a very large number.

    One last item before I shut up...when I bought my car last June, I pulled the engine cover off, and I immediately noticed something. I didn't think anything of it, until I saw the wet disconnect this spring. Ill let the pics do the talking...






    Could the fuel rail have possibly caught fire at one time? I have never smelled or seen gas on that quick disconnect until a month ago. You be the judge.

    I hope this helps somebody. Any questions just ask!
    Last edited by SuperSport; 04-26-2010 at 02:06 PM. Reason: emphasizing the text for people who can't seem to read, or for people who skim over the text too lightly.
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  2. #2 Re: Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires? 
    Donating Users Warbeaver's Avatar
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    wow....i noticed the same issue. it does not leak gas, but will leak if you press on the quick disconnect. I took them off one day to replace the o-rings but could not see any....

    i wish you would have taken pictures of how you took out the retainers and stuff in the quick disconnects...
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  3. #3 Re: Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires? 
    GTP Level Member SuperSport's Avatar
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    Once you turn the connector over you can see inside of it. Use a flashlight. A small pick and start picking them out one at a time. Once you see inside its pretty simple.
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  4. #4 Re: Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires? 
    GTX Level Member Rather B Blown's Avatar
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    wow what kind of camera do you have?
    Quote Originally Posted by Reptile
    It sounds like you accidentally stuffed a midget in the downpipe, and he's hammering out an SOS to get out.
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  5. #5 Re: Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires? 
    GTX Level Member QUICKSILVER462's Avatar
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    I agree with you SuperSport, this is a more likely scenario for the cause of the fires.
    And I also agree with you on the gaskets for the valve cover, they are way OVER designed and too complicated. I would say the person, or people that were involved with the design have never installed a gasket in thier life. The most likely reason it was used is becuase it was cheaper to manufacture, and faster to install, it's all about saving money.

    Dean
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  6. #6 Re: Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires? 
    GTX Level Member kjohnson's Avatar
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    neet im going to check it before i drive my car next and hey man quit biting your fingernails
    silver 2003 Grand Prix GT List is on it's way to be updated

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  7. #7 Re: Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires? 
    Donating Users Warbeaver's Avatar
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    would you be able to tell which o ring you used out of that pack? i already have one pack of these at home, but would like to know which oring exactly cuz i may have another one somewhere.

    also, how far up in that quick disconnect is the retainer? i looked inside there and all i saw was black..

    what tool did you use to pick out the o rings and retainers?
    Last edited by Warbeaver; 04-12-2010 at 11:40 AM.
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  8. #8 Re: Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires? 
    GTP Level Member SuperSport's Avatar
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    Couldn't tell ya exactly which one it was warbeaver, but you will need 2 packs of those anyways. The feed and return lines have 2 o-rings in each, and one line is large with 2 larger o-rings and one line is small with 2 smaller o-rings. And since one pack has only one large and one small, so you need 2 packs.

    You wont see the o-rings inside unless you get a bright flashlight inside the connector. Even then, youll barely see brown and yellow, since there is a black and white retainer holding the o-rings in. The retainer is the closest thing to the opening.

    It is recommended to use a small o-ring pick, but i managed using a tiny flat bladed screwdriver. I was very careful.
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  9. #9 Re: Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires? 
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    Have the same issue.

    Its all about the quick disconnects.

    You can check your O-rings or replace with AN fittings like so:

    http://www.grandprixforums.net/fuel_line.php

    http://www.grandprixforums.net/f73/c...html#post82837

    Pics in the second link.
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  10. #10 Re: Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires? 
    GTP Level Member SuperSport's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt5112 View Post

    Its all about the quick disconnects.
    So youre saying broken o-rings are not the problem? Interesting.
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  11. #11 Re: Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires? 
    Donating Users Warbeaver's Avatar
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    Couldn't tell ya exactly which one it was warbeaver, but you will need 2 packs of those anyways. The feed and return lines have 2 o-rings in each, and one line is large with 2 larger o-rings and one line is small with 2 smaller o-rings
    so..ur replacing the yellow o-rings too? i thought you were only replacing 1 o-ring in each line? the brown ones...
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  12. #12 Re: Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires? 
    GTP Level Member SuperSport's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warbeaver View Post
    so..ur replacing the yellow o-rings too? i thought you were only replacing 1 o-ring in each line? the brown ones...

    I changed both yellow and brown in both lines for good measure. Although the yellow rings were not in as bad of shape as the brown ones, they were very soft and in need of changing.
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  13. #13 Re: Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires? 
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    when you replace injector o-rings do you usually replace both the ones on the bottom of the injector and the top, or just the bottom? If you want to pull the injectors out of the fuel rails, do they just pull out? and you just slip them back in with the new o-rings?
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  14. #14 Re: Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires? 
    GTP Level Member SuperSport's Avatar
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    When you pop off the fuel rail, there is a metal slip retainer at the top of the injector that holds the injector in the rail. Slide that sleeve out and then the injector can be pulled out of the rail.

    It is recommended to change top and bottom o-rings. As for buying injector o-rings, just ask at the parts counter. There are 12 in a pack I believe. Enough to do top and bottom.
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  15. #15 Re: Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires? 
    GrandPrix Junkie SDGTP99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSport View Post
    When you pop off the fuel rail, there is a metal slip retainer at the top of the injector that holds the injector in the rail. Slide that sleeve out and then the injector can be pulled out of the rail.

    It is recommended to change top and bottom o-rings. As for buying injector o-rings, just ask at the parts counter. There are 12 in a pack I believe. Enough to do top and bottom.
    Because if you don't replace all your injectors you risk getting a nasty vacuum leak or worse.
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  16. #16 Re: Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires? 
    Donating Users Warbeaver's Avatar
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    my bottom ones looked fine last time i looked. i don't know about the tops.
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  17. #17 Re: Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires? 
    GTP Level Member SuperSport's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warbeaver View Post
    my bottom ones looked fine last time i looked. i don't know about the tops.
    The bottoms go bad first. So if the bottoms are good, then the tops should be fine.
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  18. #18 Re: Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires? 
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    i went to store and got the o-ring assortment. only bought one since i already had the same assortment at home. Autozone didnt have the 12 pack o ring assortment for the fuel injectors.

    honestly, i didnt think i was going to get the black retainer out. I fiddled with it for 10 minutes until i finally just took a tiny flat head screwdriver and stuck it in through the side opening in the quick disconnect, lodged it on top of the retainer and pushed down really hard. POP. came out lol rest was easy. Did the same on the rear line, except, you cant fish the flathead through the side of the quick disconnect. You have to go in from the very bottom and just pry downward on the top of the retainer even thought it is an awkward angle, and you feel like its not gonna come out. thise one was easier than the front for some reason...

    pulled all the o-rings out, and to my surprise, they were not cracked at all. they looked good actually. On the rear, i dont know if i bumped the yellow oring while messing with the retainer, but it looked like it had been out of place or something. I was trying to make sense of my rear leak. idk...I put in all new orings and nothing leaks at all! i pushed and pulled an no leaking! so, o-rings looked good, but the new ones fixed the leak issue....maybe the old o-rings were too flimsy?

    edit* my car has 97k miles on it, so i don't know if the engine fires are from these fuel line o-rings. Maybe just on the higher mileage engines?? SuperSport, how many miles were on your car when you changed the o-rings?
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  19. #19 Re: Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSport View Post
    So youre saying broken o-rings are not the problem? Interesting.
    No, I'm saying if they had brass fittings, this wouldn't be an issue.

    Quick disconnects aren't a smart thing to use since they rely on rubber o-rings.
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  20. #20 Re: Could THIS Be Causing All of the Engine Fires? 
    Donating Users Lawngoose's Avatar
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    Very good read, Thanks for being thorough. I have 150k on my rails never been disconnected. Errrrrr....
    02 GTP 13.6 @ 100mph - SOLD
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