Thread: Understanding Alignment - NOW WITH STOCK ALIGNMENT SPECS!

Results 1 to 17 of 17
  1. #1 Understanding Alignment - NOW WITH STOCK ALIGNMENT SPECS! 
    #Billsnamechangessuck MrPoopyButthole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    127.0.0.1
    Posts
    15,112
    Thanks (Received)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    0
    Dislikes (Received)
    0
    Chats
    40719
    I am porting this from and another forum, but it has some very good information.

    Understanding the meaning of each part
    Toe:
    Toe is the relationship of the tires as viewed from directly above (or directly below, as the street sees them). 0 toe will have the tires absolutely parallel when rolling down the street. Most factory alignments use toe in, the tires are usually pointed in ever so slightly (usually 1/16th of an inch, give or take). With toe in, the steering needs to be turned enough to cause both tires to "point" the direction you want the car to go (as you turn the wheel, one wheel will remain pointed straight ahead while the other begins the turn....turn the wheel a little more and both wheels begin to make the turn....toe in tends to add stability to a vehicle....it makes the car less "twitchy"). With 0 toe, when the wheel starts to turn, the car will begin to turn as well, both wheels begin the turn together. 0 toe tends to make a car much more willing to initiate a turn. Toe out will do the same as 0 toe, but it goes a step farther...since the wheels are already pointed slightly out, the car is already "trying" to turn, it makes a car even less stable and more willing to turn (some cars will become very "twitchy" or "nervous").

    Camber:
    Camber is the tilt of the tires as viewed from directly in front of the vehicle (if you take 2 tires and stand them up in your garage and lay on the floor in front of them, they will likely be parallel, both standing vertically, which would be 0 camber). Negative camber is when the tops of the tires are closer together than the bottom of the tires, positive camber is when the tires are closer together at the bottom than the top (negative camber is / \, positive camber is \ / as the tires are viewed from the front) As a car begins to take a turn, the forces acting on a car begin to cause "body roll", during body roll, the front tires will begin to change the way the tire sits on the ground. As the body rolls, the contact patch on the road may be reduced (as the tire tilts away from the ground), to combat this, we add negative camber to the front suspension. Negative camber will help reduce the tendency to wear the outside edge of tires on cars that are driven hard through the corners. Negative camber will also help keep the contact patch of the tire flat on the ground during body roll. If you increase negative camber, you will begin to sear the inside edges of the tires when driving around (non-aggressively), since there is slightly more load on the inside edge than there is on the outside edge.

    Castor:
    The best way to describe castor is to look at a front wheel on a shopping cart, the carts front wheels stay straight due to castor. Castor is the angle of the point that the spindle rotates on when you turn the wheel. It is not straight up and down like you may think. The tire actually turns on a "tilted" axis. If you turn your wheels all the way to one side and look at them from in front of the car, you'll see that one is tilted in, and the other is tilted the same way (\\ or //), Now, if we have negative camber (with the wheels straight), how did we get negative on one side and positive on the other? That is castor at work. As you move the axis that the steering pivots on, you can get the steering to add negative camber when the wheel is turned. More or less castor will change the ultimate amount of negative camber "seen" by the road surface. It is a delicate balancing act....too much castor, you will have very "heavy" steering, too little and you'll lose cornering grip.

    Setting up for an alignment your way and best recommendations for our cars

    Camber:
    For street use, anything from -.5 to -1.5 camber is acceptable. Meaning, no evil handling characteristics, just progressively more grip as you head towards the -1.5 number (not all cars can get that high, I ran out of adjustment at -1.3). So, for street use (mild) we usually recommend -.5 to -.7 camber (as high as -1.0 for an "aggressive" street setup, people autocross on -1.3). We suggest a -.7 as a very good compromise for even better tire wear.

    Toe:
    For street use, 0 toe is good. Toe out makes the car more responsive (it wants to turn), because toe out makes it slightly unstable (not bad at all, think of balancing a ruler, standing straight up on your hand, it naturally wants to fall over, my car naturally wants to turn). 0 toe is a good compromise for street use. It makes the car slightly more responsive than it is now and it is still extremely stable.

    Castor:
    For street use we recommend +4.5, it keeps the steering from being too heavy and allows for a decent amount of negative camber while turning (go turn your wheels all the way to one side, notice that they are both "tilted" the same way, that's castor at work). We would not advise going lower than 4.3 nor higher than 5.0 and we really prefer 4.5 (as do many people). At 4.5 you'll have a stock steering feel, not too light and not heavier.


    Mild Street Alignment:
    0 Toe
    -.5 Camber
    +4.5 Castor

    Slightly More Aggressive:
    0 Toe
    -.7 Camber
    +4.5 Castor

    Even More Aggressive:
    0 Toe
    -1.0 Camber
    4.5 Castor

    The Full Race Setup
    1/32" to 3/32" Toe Out
    -1.3 to -1.5 Camber (whatever max is after the castor is set at 4.5)
    +4.5 Castor


    Each step will be slightly worse on tire wear and will be slightly more responsive and make more total grip than the one before it. For street use, any of the first 3 work great. If you really like to beat on it around cloverleaf type exit ramps, we suggest that you go with the 3rd setup. If you are just looking for something for a cruiser and weekend driver, the 1st or 2nd are both good setup. The 4th setup will make the car very responsive, but it may hunt on uneven pavement and be "darty" at times.



    The Above information is just to give you an example what going aggressive with a setup means. Here are the Ideal specs for OEM setup:
    Wheel Alignment Specifications
    Operation
    Service Allowable
    Service Preferred

    Front Suspension

    •Camber (Cross Tolerance)
    -1.40 to -0.40 Degrees
    -0.90 Degrees

    •Caster (Cross Tolerance)
    2.50 to 3.50 Degrees
    3.00 Degrees

    •Steering Angle
    -3.50 to +3.50 Degrees
    0 Degrees

    •Toe (Total)
    -0.10 to +0.30 Degrees
    0.10 Degrees

    Rear Suspension

    •Camber (Cross Tolerance)
    -1.40 to -0.40 Degrees
    -0.90 Degrees

    •Thrust Angle
    -0.15 to +0.15 Degrees
    0 Degrees

    •Toe (Total)
    -0.14 to +0.26 Degrees
    +0.06 Degrees
    Last edited by MrPoopyButthole; 05-05-2011 at 03:36 PM.

    Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.
    2004 Saab 9-5 Aero - WAHSAABI - Way too much power/Koni FSD & Hirsch Springs/Big Sways - DD/AutoX'r
    2007 Ford F-150 Lariat - 5.4L V8 - Bill secretly likes it
    2015 Mitsubishi Outlander Sport SE - Wifey Mobile
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #2 Re: Understanding Alignment 
    DUI BABY Bio248's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    MILWAUKEE
    Posts
    31,340
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1
    Dislikes (Received)
    0
    Chats
    40479
    thanks, dave. this is sticky worthy.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #3 Re: Understanding Alignment 
    Donating User Odi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Chicago South Suburbs
    Posts
    5,928
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1
    Dislikes (Received)
    0
    Chats
    43199
    useful, but not relevant to grand prix. every car has different base alignment specs. and this is a bit different from a prix.
    2001 GT Special Edition - 208k miles, junkyard status. Part out in progress.
    2015 Mazda Mazda3 S Touring - 39000 miles, bone stock.
    Questions regarding LED's, headlights, HID's, taillights and more!? Click here.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #4 Re: Understanding Alignment 
    DUI BABY Bio248's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    MILWAUKEE
    Posts
    31,340
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1
    Dislikes (Received)
    0
    Chats
    40479
    actually the 'slightly more aggressive' is what is normally seen on a grand prix stock. im not sure about the caster, but the toe and camber are right.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #5 Re: Understanding Alignment 
    Awaiting Confirmation
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    aowdnawi
    Posts
    23,292
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1
    Dislikes (Received)
    0
    Chats
    64942
    I loved driving with a total of 3* of toe out.

    The car was so willing to turn unlike it is now with -0.1* toe.

    I need my toe fixed but this sheet seems i'm already running an aggressive setup? Perhaps too much really?

    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #6 Re: Understanding Alignment 
    I live here. SlowNA06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    5,928
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0
    Dislikes (Received)
    0
    Chats
    481
    Quote Originally Posted by Bio248 View Post
    actually the 'slightly more aggressive' is what is normally seen on a grand prix stock. im not sure about the caster, but the toe and camber are right.
    This was maybe written by an F-body mechanic?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #7 Re: Understanding Alignment 
    GT Level Member ill12will8's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    DC/MD
    Posts
    284
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0
    Dislikes (Received)
    0
    Chats
    9
    what does the sway bar have to do with the alignment
    1997 Artic White GTP: Stock (I call her "Brooke")
    2000 Silvermist GTP: ZZP DP, CAI w/ 9" open cone, Dorman front sway bar, PEMs, AL605 -DEAD & GONE
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #8 Re: Understanding Alignment 
    The mod from over yonder TheOtherNick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Charles City, IA
    Posts
    9,955
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0
    Dislikes (Received)
    0
    Chats
    3061
    Nothing.
    01 gtp-big cam e85 dd 78dodge- guzzling fuel 05 cummins- rollin coal
    SMGPFC Two Nipple General
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #9 Re: Understanding Alignment 
    Donating Users iroc2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Lansing IL
    Posts
    1,207
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0
    Dislikes (Received)
    0
    Chats
    1
    camber is like a girls legs.. if they are \\ // its positive, if its // \\ its negative.
    SMGPFC # 008 -White 1995 Grand Prix SE: tinted tails, Flowmaster 40 Series mufflers with resonating tips. much more to come eventually
    Quote Originally Posted by Xorbex View Post
    I almost beat the man but murphy showed up.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #10 Re: Understanding Alignment 
    I live here. brandonl2000's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Posts
    6,705
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0
    Dislikes (Received)
    0
    Chats
    74545
    hahahha. so where was this alignment done? my alignment shop doesn't give me any kind of print out. :/
    2003 Grand Prix GTP-3.5 setup, sold it, miss it
    2002 Grand Prix GT-top swap, GT1 Cam, SD Headers, 90# springs, 42.5 injectors, 3.4 pulley - sold
    2012 Chevrolet Cruze LTZ-Summit White, 1.4Turbo
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #11 Re: Understanding Alignment 
    DUI BABY Bio248's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    MILWAUKEE
    Posts
    31,340
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1
    Dislikes (Received)
    0
    Chats
    40479
    they should. or they should at least tell you what they set it all at. fyi, if everything is at zero they just ****ed up your alignment.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #12 Re: Understanding Alignment 
    GT Level Member ill12will8's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    DC/MD
    Posts
    284
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0
    Dislikes (Received)
    0
    Chats
    9
    I was told today that I couldn't be given a proper alignment but I have a broken sway
    1997 Artic White GTP: Stock (I call her "Brooke")
    2000 Silvermist GTP: ZZP DP, CAI w/ 9" open cone, Dorman front sway bar, PEMs, AL605 -DEAD & GONE
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #13 Re: Understanding Alignment 
    Awaiting Confirmation
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    aowdnawi
    Posts
    23,292
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1
    Dislikes (Received)
    0
    Chats
    64942
    If any suspension piece is broken most places wont align your car for you.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #14 Re: Understanding Alignment - NOW WITH STOCK ALIGNMENT SPECS! 
    SE Level Member 99FormulaM6r's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    20
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0
    Dislikes (Received)
    0
    Chats
    0
    I'm honestly a bit partial to some toe in (.06 degree or so, comes out to 1/16). 95% of the time you're driving your car, you're probably going straight, and it makes it track better. When you turn, to me it gives the illusion of adding some heft, not a bad thing IMO.

    -.5 camber, along with 4.5 or 5 caster is a must tho, so I do agree with the rest. To each their own I suppose.
    1999 Pontiac Firebird Formula M6: SLP lid, LS6 intake, GMMG catback, MGW, blanks/HPS/SS lines, Koni 4/4, Strano 35/22 sway bars, UMI PHB
    2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GT
    2007 Yamaha TW200
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #15 Re: Understanding Alignment - NOW WITH STOCK ALIGNMENT SPECS! 
    DUI BABY Bio248's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    MILWAUKEE
    Posts
    31,340
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1
    Dislikes (Received)
    0
    Chats
    40479
    a little bit of toe in is normal on most 'stock' alignments. you're right.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #16 Re: Understanding Alignment - NOW WITH STOCK ALIGNMENT SPECS! 
    GrandPrix Junkie gtpeddie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    3,890
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0
    Dislikes (Received)
    0
    Chats
    539
    toe*

    97 GTP DD, 1952 Ford F-1 Resto Project, 2006 Mustang GT "UnDeR CoNsTrUcTiOn", 02 GPGT SOLD!, 98 GTP Parted/Scraped
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #17 Re: Understanding Alignment - NOW WITH STOCK ALIGNMENT SPECS! 
     

Similar Threads

  1. Help understanding the Cooling System.
    By genesis in forum General Tech Discussion
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-29-2010, 12:47 PM
  2. Understanding electronics in our cars
    By BillBoost37 in forum How To Write-Ups/Tech Tips
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-16-2010, 10:10 AM
  3. PCM upgrading understanding
    By Lukus in forum PCM Tuning
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-24-2010, 02:33 PM
  4. Am I understanding spark plugs right?
    By JDCMoney in forum 3.8L V6 Supercharged (L67)(L32)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10-18-2009, 02:01 PM
  5. '01 alignment ?'s
    By riceburner in forum Brakes/Suspension/Chassis
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-11-2009, 04:14 PM
Tags for this Thread

View Tag Cloud

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •